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To: jospehm20

You seemed to have glossed over the part where Lincoln said,”and having the power.” Lincoln was talking about the natural right of revolution, which is what our founding fathers did in 1776. Now there’s no right to win your revolution because country’s, like people, have a natural right to self defense. You gotta have the “power”.

So Lincoln was not singing a different tune in 1860. He was singing the same tune George Washington started when he put down the Whiskey Rebellion and the tune Andrew Jackson sang when he confronted the nullification crisis of 1832.

The reason Davis wasn’t tried is because by the time the federal government got around to being able to try him the civil government in Virginia had been restored. Since the his crimes were committed in Virginia the jury pool would have had to be selected from that area. Which would have meant any jury would likely be composed of former rebels. Here is the letter from the US consul on the case to the US Attorney General explaining this.

Richard Henry Dana, Jr. letter to Attorney General W.M. Evarts
“Sir,
While preparing with yourself, before you assumed your present post, to perform the honorable duty the President had assigned to us, of conducting the trial of Jefferson Davis, you know how much my mind was moved, from the first, by doubts of the expediency of trying him at all. The reasons which prevented my presenting those doubts no longer exist, and they have so ripened into conviction that I feel it my duty to lay them before you in form, as you now hold a post of official responsibly for the proceeding.

After the most serious reflection, I cannot see any good reason why the Government should make a question whether the late civil war was treason, and whether Jefferson Davis took any part in it, and submit those questions to the decision of a petit jury of the vicinage of Richmond at “nisi prius” [”court of original jurisdiction”].

As the Constitution in terms settles the fact that our republic is a state against which treason may be committed, the only constitutional question attending the late war was whether a levying of war against the United States which would otherwise be treason, is relieved of that character by the fact that it took the form of secession from the Union by state authority. In other words the legal issue was, whether secession by a State is a right, making an act legal and obligatory upon the nation which would otherwise have been treason.

This issue I suppose to have been settled by the action of every department of the Government, by the action of the people itself, and by those events which are definitive in the affairs of men.

The Supreme Court in the Prize Cases held, by happily a unanimous opinion, that acts of the States, whether secession ordinances, or in whatever form cast, could not be brought into the cases, as justifications for the war, and had no legal effect on the character of the war, or on the political status of territory or persons or property, and that the line of enemy’s territory was a question of fact, depending upon the line of bayonets of an actual war. The rule in the Prize Cases has been steadily followed in the Supreme Court since, and in the Circuit Courts, without an intimation of a doubt. That the law making and executive departments have treated this secession and war as treason, is a matter of history, as well as is the action of the people in the highest sanction of war.”

“It cannot be doubted that the Circuit Court at the trial will instruct the jury, in conformity with these decisions, that the late attempt to establish and sustain by war an independent empire within the United States was treason. The only question of fact submitted to the Jury will be whether Jefferson Davis took any part in the war. As it is one of the great facts of history that he was its head, civil and military, why should we desire to make a question of it and refer its decision to a jury, with power to find in the negative or affirmative, or to disagree? It is not an appropriate question for the decision of a jury; certainly it is not a fact which a Government should, without great cause, give a jury a chance to ignore.

We know that these indictments are to be tried in what was for five years enemy’s territory, which is not yet restored to the exercise of all its political functions, and where the fires are not extinct. We know that it only requires one dissentient juror to defeat the Government and give Jefferson Davis and his favorers a triumph. Now, is not such a result one which we must include in our calculation of possibilities? Whatever modes may be legally adopted to draw a jury, or to purge it, and whatever the influence of the court or of counsel, we know that a vavorer of treason may get upon the jury. But that is not necessary. A fear of personal violence or social ostracism may be enough to induce one man to withhold his assent from the verdict, especially as be need not come forward personally, nor give a reason, even in the jury-room.

This possible result would be most humiliating to the Government and people of this country, and none the less so from the fact that it would be absurd. The Government would be stopped in its judicial course because it could neither assume nor judicially determine that Jefferson Davis took part in the late civil war. Such a result would also bring into doubt the adequacy of our penal system to deal with such cases as this.

If it were important to secure a verdict as a means of punishing the defendant, the question would present itself differently. But it would be beneath the dignity of the Government and of the issue, to inflict upon him a minor punishment; and, as to a sentence of death, I am sure that, after this lapse of time and after all that has occurred in the interval, the people of the United States would not desire to see it enforced.

In fine, after the fullest consideration, it seems to me that, by pursuing the trial, the Government can get only a re-affirmation by a Circuit Court at “nisi prius” of a rule of public law settled for this country in every way in which such a matter can be settled, only giving to a jury drawn from the region of the rebellion a chance to disregard the law when announced. It gives that jury a like opportunity to ignore the fact that Jefferson Davis took any part in the late civil war. And one man upon the jury can secure these results. The risks of such absurd and discreditable issues of a great state trial are assumed for the sake of a verdict which, if obtained, will settle nothing in law or national practice not now settled, and nothing in fact not now history, while no judgment rendered thereon do we think will be ever executed.

Besides these reasons, and perhaps because of them, I think that the public interest in the trial has ceased among the most earnest and loyal citizens.

If your views and those of the President should be in favor of proceeding with the trial, I am confident that I can do my duty as counsel, to the utmost of my ability and with all zeal. For my doubts are not what the verdict ought to be. On the contrary, I should feel all the more strongly, if the trial is begun, the importance of a victory to the Government, and the necessity of putting forth all powers and using all lawful means to secure it. Still, I feel it my duty to say that if the President should judge otherwise, my position in the cause is at his disposal.”

Lincoln’s let them up easy policy, and his selection of Andrew Johnon as VP, are my two biggest disagreements with him. If I had been President I would have had all rebel leaders tried by military tribunal and then hung by the neck until dead.


44 posted on 02/21/2020 4:53:06 AM PST by OIFVeteran
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To: OIFVeteran

So I hope as correct? He would have been found not guilty.


65 posted on 02/21/2020 10:17:13 AM PST by jospehm20
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To: OIFVeteran
You seemed to have glossed over the part where Lincoln said,”and having the power.”

A "right" that requires superior force is not a "right." If your theory were correct, people could be beaten down if they try to speak, unless they are powerful enough to win a confrontation.

Here you go again, with this "right of revolution" crap. The nation was founded on the principle that Independence was a right, given by God to all people.

A nation founded on such a principle has no reason to deny people their own right to independence. The side trying to subjugate the other is the side which is morally and legally wrong.

160 posted on 03/07/2020 10:38:08 AM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no oither sovereignty."/)
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