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You talk about the weapons in forts on their property, and for which those states likely paid the bulk as if they weren't entitled to their land or what their money had bought in at least equal measure to the North.

That would apply even more to California if it seceded.

And so far as inciting secessionism in other states, the colonists did the same thing. If people have a legal right to leave, and a legal right to speak, then this is the consequence of having such a system. States could chose to leave or not, and if it was in their interest to remain in the Union, they would have done.

Different situation. There was a Continental Congress that brought all the colonies together. While some colonies were more radical than others, it wasn't a case of some states trying to turn others against England. Moreover, there were a lot more agitation and more electoral shenanigans in 1860 than in 1775.

I have long believed this is their primary vehicle for manipulating Americans into supporting ideas and causes that are ultimately harmful to both the people and the nation in the long run.

Manipulating Americans into supporting ideas and causes that are ultimately hostile by to the people and the nation in the long run? That was certainly true of Davis and the Fire-Eaters.

What I see is New York and California destroying the country, and I mean the one i'm living in right now, not 159 years ago.

Yet you have only kind words for the destroyers a century and a half back.

That would apply even more to California if it seceded.

I have no problems with settling up with them financially, but given how much of the national debt they are responsible for, I daresay the result is not likely to be in their favor.

Hardly. They tried to turn the Canadian colonies against England. Remember, in those days there was no distinction between US and Canada. They were all exactly the same status as English colonies.

Manipulating Americans into supporting ideas and causes that are ultimately hostile by to the people and the nation in the long run? That was certainly true of Davis and the Fire-Eaters.

Even if that is true, that was 159 years ago, and I am more concerned about what people are doing right now.

Yet you have only kind words for the destroyers a century and a half back.

When I was growing up, I thought the Confederates were the monsters. It has taken me quite a long while to realize that perhaps they were beaten by the real monsters.

I know the ones threatening us today emerged from that war. The Fedzilla is way more powerful as a consequence of that war than it ever would have been had that war not been fought.