Posted on 12/22/2019 4:23:47 AM PST by Bull Snipe
God you sound like a god&$@ed liberal. America was founded by a bunch of rich, white, racist that didn’t want to pay their taxes. If you hate America so much you should just leave.
The truth is most of the founding fathers knew slavery was wrong and incompatible with the Declaration of Independence they signed. But it was more important to have America than it was to get rid of slavery. So they kicked the can down the road hoping future generations would get rid of it.
They were so embarrassed by slavery they wouldn’t even mention it by name in the US constitution. Not so the southern rebel leaders you seem to have your lips permanently attached to their fourth point of contact. They used the word slavery many times in their constitution and also made it impossible for any state, or new territory to get rid of it.
Not so our founding fathers. They outlawed slavery in the northwest ordinance and allowed states to outlaw slavery in the constitution. Get it through your thick head that there is no moral equivalency between the founding fathers and the southern rebel leaders of 1860.
“But it was more important to have America (with slavery) than it was to get rid of slavery.”
Many up North probably would not have voted to enshrine slavery into the United States Constitution at all if it had not been in their economic and political best self interest.
This is a silly point you are trying to make. Ft Sumter is not even slightly comparable to our bases in California.
More explicit, but not greatly different from what the US constitution and the common law indicated.
When the states ratified the Constitution, i'm pretty sure the slave states thought they were getting the things you mentioned in your message. Since they felt as if they were given a bait and switch, I think they wanted it spelled out clearly so that no one in the future would mistake the meaning.
Exactly my point but more elegantly put.
There aren't graduations of slavery. It either is or is not allowed under the Constitution. The US constitution clearly allowed it.
Well a couple of thoughts come to mind. (In no particular order):
It matters not what I say - you will reject it.
Bold assertions offered up without reservations or wriggle-room are foolhardy at best.
“The fog of war”
Hanlon’s razor
“Porter tried to initiate an attack on the Confederates. Captain Meigs stopped him”
Of the various narratives surrounding the events of Fort Pickens I find this one to be the most detailed and complete. There is no mention of your claim in this (or any other narrative that I have read). Where did you see this?
https://www.americanheritage.com/relief-fort-pickens#1
>>OIFVeteran wrote: “Well know your throwing Buchanan in their too! At least your consistent in your delusions. What’s your thoughts on Andrew Jackson’s proclamation to South Carolina during the nullification crisis of 1832? Was he a Marxist too?”
Marxist crony-capitalists, like Abraham Lincoln and Henry Clay, use other people’s money, such as federal taxes, to buy votes, line their own pockets, and enrich their friends.
Jackson did the opposite: he used federal taxes to pay off the national debt. That doesn’t change the fact that Jackson was a jackass on the nullification issue; but it does mean he was not a gangster, like Lincoln.
Mr. Kalamata
>>OIFVeteran wrote: “Well know your throwing Buchanan in their too! At least your consistent in your delusions. What’s your thoughts on Andrew Jackson’s proclamation to South Carolina during the nullification crisis of 1832? Was he a Marxist too?”
Marxist crony-capitalists, like Abraham Lincoln and Henry Clay, use other people’s money, such as federal taxes, to buy votes, line their own pockets, and enrich their friends.
Jackson did the opposite: he used federal taxes to pay off the national debt. That doesn’t change the fact that Jackson was a jackass on the nullification issue; but it does mean he was not a gangster, like Lincoln.
Mr. Kalamata
That was the definition of treason, under the dictator Lincoln. Are you familiar with the plight of Francis Key Howard, grandson of Francis Scott Key?
"It would be impossible, without extending this work far beyond the limits designed, to give a separate history of each one of the many cases of gentlemen of Baltimore, and from different parts of the State of Maryland, who were arrested and imprisoned."
"It will be remembered that the Mayor of the city of Baltimore, the Police Commissioners, the Marshal of Police, members of the State Legislature, and private citizens, not only from that city, but from all parts of the State, were arrested and thrown into prison, by the edict of Abraham Lincoln, and kept there for months, without any warrant of law whatever."
"The prerogative exercised by Mr. Lincoln in Maryland, as elsewhere, exhibits an assumption of power unparalleled in the history of any country, at any time. For, be it remembered, Maryland was not in a state of revolution or rebellion. Mob law may have existed at times in the city of Baltimore, but did it not exist, at times, in the city of Philadelphia?..."
"[I]n order to embrace the history of many of the cases of citizens in Baltimore—because they are not dissimilar—in one narrative, we present a most interesting and readable one, from the pen of Frank Key Howard, Esq., a member of the Baltimore Bar."
"On the morning of the 13th of September, 1861, at my residence, in the city of Baltimore, I was awakened, about half-past twelve or one o'clock, by the ringing of the bell… In answer to my demand that he should produce the warrant or order under which he was acting, he declined to do so, but said he had instructions from Mr. Seward, the Secretary of State."
"I replied that I could recognize no such authority, when he stated that he intended to execute his orders, and that resistance would be idle, as he had a force with him sufficient to render it unavailing. As he spoke, several men entered the house, more than one of whom were armed with revolvers, which I saw m their belts. There was no one in the house, when it was thus invaded, except my wife, children, and servants; and, under such circumstances, I, of course, abandoned all idea of resistance…"
[Howard was taken away, while the thugs continued to ransack his home until 3:00AM.]
"I reached Fort McHenry about two o'clock in the morning. There I found several of my friends, and others were brought in a few minutes afterward. One or two were brought in later in the day, making fifteen in all. Among them were most of the members of the Legislature from Baltimore, Mr. Brown, the Mayor of the city, and one of our Representatives in Congress, Mr. May. They were all gentlemen of high social position, and of unimpeachable character, and each of them had been arrested, as has been said, solely on account of his political opinions, no definite charge having been then or afterward preferred against them…"
"When I looked out in the morning, I could not help being struck by an odd and not pleasant coincidence. On that day, forty-seven years before, my grandfather, Mr. F. S. Key, then a prisoner on a British ship, had witnessed the bombardment of Fort McHenry. When, on the following morning, the hostile fleet drew off, defeated, he wrote the song so long popular throughout the country, the "Star-spangled Banner." As I stood upon the very scene of that conflict, I could not but contrast my position with his, forty-seven years before. The flag which he had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving, at the same place, over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed…
"We left our prison for our homes on the morning of the 27th. There were, at the time of our release, no other prisoners in Fort Warren than those named, except one, who was a native of Massachusetts, and who had been arrested in that State, a few weeks previously. The gentlemen above named had, with a single exception, been my companions in Fort Lafayette, and of course in Fort Warren. All but one had been imprisoned over a year, and Mr. Gatchell, Colonel Kane, and my father for nearly eighteen months. Each of them had determined at the outset to resist, to the uttermost, the dictatorship of Abraham Lincoln; and having done so, each had the satisfaction of feeling, as he left Fort Warren, that he had faithfully, and not unsuccessfully, discharged a grave public duty. We came out of prison as we had gone in, holding in the same just scorn and detestation the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution than ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort.
In summary, Francis Key Howard was imprisoned for more than a year, being moved to several military prisons, before being released from Fort Warren on November 27, 1982. His "crime?"
"From the moment of my arrest down to this hour, no charge of any sort has been preferred against me, and none can be alleged or established, for I have not violated any law whatever, State or Federal. I was, as you may perhaps be aware, one of the Editors of the 'Daily Exchange,' a morning journal published in Baltimore. In that paper I had expressed my political opinions without reserve. I had, a year ago, advocated the adoption of some compromise by Congress which should stay the then threatened rupture between the North and South. I had subsequently deprecated any attempt to coerce the South, on the ground that it would only render the separation of the two sections inevitable and final. I asserted that war would leave the country in a worse condition than it found it; and, as it would entail upon us an enormous debt, I felt it to be my duty to resist, and I did resist its initiation. I was unable to see how the Union could be preserved if a large majority of the Southern people were bent upon a separation, and I said so. I was unable to comprehend how the President could, from the injunction which commanded him to see that the laws were faithfully executed, derive authority to supersede and violate the fundamental laws of the land, and I said so. I was equally unable to see how. upon the theory of upholding the Constitution, I was under an obligation to support those who were daily manifesting their contempt for all its provisions— nor could I conceive how this Government had any existence whatever outside of the charter which established it. All these political opinions I had the absolute right to entertain and promulgate. I choose to refer to them here, because they constitute the offences for which I am undergoing punishment. Notwithstanding the fact that many thousands of persons in the Northern States had entertained and expressed these views within a twelvemonth, the Administration determined that it was criminal in me to continue to hold and utter them, and has, therefore, arbitrarily inflicted upon me the indignities and wrongs which I have mentioned."
[John A. Marshall, "American Bastille: a history of the illegal arrests and imprisonment of American citizens during the late Civil War." Thomas W. Hartley, 1871, pp.642ff]
Mr. Kalamata
OIFVeteran wrote: “Hey Kalamata. I found another Marxist, crony capitalist, who believed the Union was perpetual!”
You are so civically ignorant I barely know how to respond, or even if it is worth it.
Lee was for limited-government. Marxist/crony-capitalists are unlimited-government influence peddlers, like Hillary, Obama and Lincoln.
*****************
OIFVeteran wrote: “My god who would have thought that Lee was a big-government, central-planning Marxist, who despises the original Constitution. These damned Marxist are everywhere.’
Only a fool or OIFVeteran would say that, but I repeat myself.
Mr. Kalamata
You calling anyone else a fool is rich. I am however, not surprised that your not above name calling. I have found you amusing though. Like a flat earther who goes around trying to convince other people that the earth is flat, contrary to all evidence that it is, in fact, round.
I guess it’s not true that wisdom comes with age. Or at least not true in your case.
On April 16 the expeditionary force of Colonel Brown and Captain Meigs arrived at Fort Pickens, approaching the island on the seaward side and offloading without incident two hundred soldiers that night and the rest of the men and cargo, including the horses, on the seventeenth. Also on the seventeenth the Powhatan , whose mission had been to cover the landing, hove somewhat anticlimactically into view.Her commander, though coming late to the feast, did his best to bring drama to the occasion. He appeared flying the British flag, apparently hoping to run past the shore batteries and enter the harbor itself. The businesslike Colonel Brown did not relish the idea of having his landing parties harassed by the Confederate fire that Porter seemed intent on provoking. So Meigs was dispatched on an errand that, in a final flourish of bravado, Porter reports thus: I ran in for the harbor, crossed the bar, and was standing up to Round Fort, when a tug put out from Pickens and placed herself across my path. Captain Meigs was on board the tug, waving a document, and, hailing, said he had an order from Colonel Brown. It was to the following effect: “Don’t permit Powhatan to run the batteries or attempt to go inside. It will bring the fire of the enemy on the fort before we are prepared.” I felt like running over Meig’s tug, but obeyed the order. The stars and stripes were hoisted, in hopes the enemy would open fire, but they did not, nor do I believe they had any intention of so doing.
As for the other matter, the entrance of Captain Porter into the harbor at this time, I agree with you in opinion. It was only by exhibiting your letter to him and indorsing most thoroughly my agreement with it, and giving him a copy of the General Orders just published to all officers to co-operate as you desired, that I stopped this gallant officer, bent on a desperate deed of self-sacrifice and devotion to his country. He will await your orders, as I shall, in all obedience and fealty.
And this:
On the morning of the 17th, while engaged in landing the horses, the Powhatan, which we had passed without seeing her during the voyage, hove in sight. A note from Colonel Brown advised me that in his opinion her entrance into the harbor at that time would bring on a collision, which it was very important to defer until our stores, guns, and ammunition were disposed of.As the enemy did not seem inclined yet to molest us; as with 600 troops in the fort and three war steamers anchored close inshore there was no danger of a successful attempt at a landing by the enemy, it was evident that it was important to prevent a collision, and her entrance would have uselessly exposed a gallant officer and a devoted crew to extreme dangers.
The circumstances had changed since Captain Porter’s orders had been issued by the President. Knowing the imperative nature of these orders and the character of him who bore them, I feared that it would not be possible to arrest his course; but requesting the commander of {p.397} the Wyandotte, on board of which I fortunately found myself at the time I received Colonel Brown’s letter, to get under way and place his vessel across the path of the Powhatan, making signal that I wished to speak with him, I succeeded at length, in spite of his changes of course and his disregard oil our signals, in stopping this vessel, which steered direct for the perilous channel on which frowned the guns of McRee, Barrancas, and many newly-constructed batteries.
I think the most telling account is Porter's own statements on the subject, told in his memoirs.
Something I have come to realize. I think it is Washington DC's number one business.
Jackson did the opposite: he used federal taxes to pay off the national debt.
And you can see where people making money from the borrowing and making money from the spending, wouldn't like this.
The calculus is this: They must exonerate anything done by their state or their ancestors, and therefore nothing Lincoln did can be accepted as wrong.
His doings were "necessary" evils.
The weather was dreadful, but on the 17th •of April the " Powhatan " arrived off Fort Pickens and found that the chartered steam- er " Atlantic," with the Army contingent, had arrived the day before. "^Lieut. Porter stood in towards the bar and had crossed it -and was standing for Fort McRea, with his <;rew at their guns, when Capt. Meigs in a large Government vessel laid right in the track of the " Powhatan " and signalled that he wanted to communicate. The ship was stopped and Capt Meigs came on board, handing to Lieut. Porter a protest against his going inside the harbor, on the ground that Fort Pickens was unprepared for an attack from the enemy's batteries, and if the " Powhatan " entered it would draw their fire upon the fort ! Capt. Meigs had obtained, before he left Washington, au- thority from the President to take this course of action in case the officer com- manding the troops objected to the ship going in.There was nothing to be done but listen to Col. Harvey Brown's plea, and obey the im- plied order of the President ; and thus the opportunity was lost of reasserting the authority of the Government to have its vessels go in and out of any port as it pleased their commanders to do. As it hap- pened there was no actual necessity for the ship to go inside, but that was not the.ques- iion : it was whether the Government had iny right to its own forts, ships and har- bors; and in starting to enter the harbor, Lieut. Porter wished to test how far the Government rights would be respected, and if not respected to cause them to be so by the power of his guns.
The President and the Secretary of State had shown great decision in fitting out this expedition, and, for the times, great moral courage in permitting it to go on, with the certainty that the guns of the " Powhatan " would be liberally used in dealing with the insurgents. But the timid policy of Col. Brown and his authority to preVent the commander of the " Powhatan " from en- tering Pensacola harbor, took all that was exciting out of this expedition, and turned what would have been a handsome dash into simply convoy duty.
After Lieut. Porter had discussed Col. Brown's protest with Capt Meigs, and care- fully considered the matter, he reluctantly turned the "Powhatan's " head toward the steamer " Atlantic," and anchored within 20 fathoms of the beach, with hawsers to keep her broadside bearing on the Navy Yard.
...
On the second day after the arrival of the " Powhatan," a flotilla, composed of steam tugs, schooners and large launches, filled with soldiers, was seen to be coming from the direction of Pensacola, and heading for the two ships lying outside of Santa Rosa Island. There were about twenty-five of these small vessels, but the number of troops was not known.This flotilla approached to within a mile and a half of the beach on Santa Rosa Island, and as they were either going to land there, or reinforce the insurrectionary army, it was time to stop their approach. The 11-inch gun on board the " Powhatan " was cast loose, and a shell fired, which burst directly over the middle of the flotilla. The consequence was a rapid retreat of the ex- pedition towards Pensacola. No doubt they had taken the " Powhatan " and " At- lantic " for two store-ships which they ex- pected to capture. Perhaps it was in- tended to attack Fort Pickens, for the troops from the "Atlantic " had been landed at night, and had not been seen by the enemy.
The "Powhatan's" 11-inch gun was re- loaded and pointed in the direction of the Navy Yard, where groups of idle soldiers were watching the operations. It was fired, and the shrapnel shell exploded in the midst of the yard, and at once cleared it of all occupants.
If the Confederates wanted an excuse to commence hostilities the opportunity had been given them ; but the fact was, they were not at all prepared for such a contin- gency, as the troops in Charleston were, and after a year's occupation of Pensacola never advanced sufficiently with their for- tifications to keep three steam frigates out of their harbor.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924032779385/cu31924032779385_djvu.txt
MONTGOMERY, ALA., April 3, 1861—10 p.m.
General BEAUREGARD:
Minnesota ordered to sea, supposed to be for mouth of Mississippi; Powhatan to sail next week; Pawnee ordered to sea on Saturday. Three companies artillery (one of sappers and miners) ordered to New York; probably for the South. Be on lookout.
L. P. WALKER.
LOL! But by this time the seven original Confederate states were claiming they were an independent country. And you're suggesting Lincoln would force them to vote on an amendment to a constitution they no longer believed they were bound by? And than makes sense to you?
Was it more pro-slavery than the US constitution? Not that I recall.
Your recollection is faulty then. It specifically protected slave imports. It specifically mandated slavery in any territory the Confederacy might acquire. It specifically prohibited any laws that impaired the right in owning slaves. If specifically prohibited states from passing laws preventing slaves from being brought in. By implication it prohibited any future amendment ending slavery. All those 'additions' protected slavery to an extent the Corwin amendment never dreamed of and far more than the U.S. Constitution did.
By placing them out of the Union, you are verifying their claim that they are.
They are the ones who claimed to be out of the Union. How could they be forced to vote to ratify the amendment?
I think you are referring to what actually became the 13th amendment.
Which is what I clearly stated.
There were fewer slaves than that in Kansas I believe, but that didn't stop slave supporters from trying to bring it into the Union as slave state. Why should we believe they wouldn't have tried elsewhere?
No more silly than many of yours.
Ft Sumter is not even slightly comparable to our bases in California.
But by the standards used by the Confederacy all military bases would immediately become the property of the nation of California, without compensation and without discussion. If the U.S. tried to retain them or supply them in any way then they would be the aggressor in the war that followed. Right?
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