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To: ealgeone
You are missing a very crucial, fundamental distinction: the difference between temporal punishment (which may include natural, logical, and just consequences) and eternal punishment.

Our Redeemer does not necessarily remove our temporal punishments. The criminal crucified on the cross next to him, now called "Dismas," testified from the gibbet that he had deserved this just punishment because of his crimes, but that Jesus, in contrast, was an innocent man.

Jesus does not dispute that Dismas had deserved this punishment, which was just; nor did he get Dismas down from the cross. He did forgive him, wipe eternal punishment off the slate, and promised him "his day" to be with him in Paradise.

If forgiveness and salvation meant that all temporal (natural, logical and just) consequences would be instantaneously removed, Jesus would have gotten Dismas down from the cross. Why should Dismas be punished --- killed, in fact --- if he were forgiven? Couldn't his Savior save him?

Note that Dismas was allowed to suffer the entire temporal punishment for his sins right there on his cross. Jesus did not remove this. Although he HAD forgiven him and saved his soul.

The same is true of all of us because of our sins. God is just, and we still must account for every thought, every deed, "every careless word" and receive the just temporal punishment for our sins. This is part of what He revealed to us.

In His parable about this "payable" temporal debtm Jesus said that if you do not pay it off in this life, you will pay afterwards, and ..

Matthew 5:26
"Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Luke 12:59
"I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

He is not taking about Hell. There is no getting out of Hell. There is no "paying the last penny."

Our Lord is talking about temporal punishment: the kind where you do pay the last penny and, blessedly, it does come to an end.

This is called temporal punishment. And it is not instantly nullified even when (like Dismas) we are looked on with love by Christ, totally forgiven and saved.

312 posted on 12/16/2018 3:56:34 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("It is better to be slapped with the Truth than to be kissed with a Lie.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Our Redeemer does not necessarily remove our temporal punishments. The criminal crucified on the cross next to him, now called "Dismas," testified from the gibbet that he had deserved this just punishment because of his crimes, but that Jesus, in contrast, was an innocent man.

I am constantly amazed at your lack of understand and conflation of what the Scriptures say. It's as if you have no prior Biblical training at all.

It's as if the concept of context has no meaning for you.

All sins have been forgiven and covered for the believer in Christ.

Are there earthly consequences of our sins? Yes. If you're caught stealing you may go to jail.

Do you have to "serve time" after you die for this? Not per the New Testament....maybe in Roman Catholicism....but not Christianity....and there is a difference.

313 posted on 12/16/2018 4:04:04 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
No. We keep this discussion in the open. No freepmail on this one.

The parables Jesus is talking about are not with an eye towards the Roman Catholic concept of purgatory.

He is talking about eternal matters here.

He's trying to warn the people that if they don't believe in Him...it's too late. They will have to pay every penny of their punishment (the wages of sin is death).

You're conflating earthly punishment for wrongdoings with eternal forgiveness. There is no post life punishment for your sins....THEY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN AT THE CROSS.

But I guess that is why Roman Catholics feel they have to work themselves silly....hoping they've done enough to "earn" the free gift of salvation that Christ offers to us.

314 posted on 12/16/2018 4:47:49 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE! However, Roman Catholicism has, does, and will change.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; ealgeone
Note that Dismas was allowed to suffer the entire temporal punishment for his sins right there on his cross. Jesus did not remove this. Although he HAD forgiven him and saved his soul.

The same is true of all of us because of our sins. God is just, and we still must account for every thought, every deed, "every careless word" and receive the just temporal punishment for our sins. This is part of what He revealed to us.

In His parable about this "payable" temporal debtm Jesus said that if you do not pay it off in this life, you will pay afterwards, and ..

Matthew 5:26 "Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Luke 12:59 "I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

He is not taking about Hell. There is no getting out of Hell. There is no "paying the last penny." Our Lord is talking about temporal punishment: the kind where you do pay the last penny and, blessedly, it does come to an end. This is called temporal punishment. And it is not instantly nullified even when (like Dismas) we are looked on with love by Christ, totally forgiven and saved.

I have to disagree. If this "temporal" punishment scale-of-justice you describe is truly what our Lord intended, then wouldn't the inverse also be true? Remember the parable Jesus gave where the vineyard owner hired laborers and agreed to pay each one a days wage? Those who started work first thing in the morning got bent out of shape when they realized they were getting the same wage for working the full day as those who showed up for the last hours of the day. The vineyard owner answered the gripers by reminding them that HE was who decided who and what got paid and that they each agreed to work for the wage he offered. Now I ask you, did that sound "fair" to you? Shouldn't the late sleepers get less money than the early worms? What do you think Jesus was trying to convey through this parable?

The Catholic idea of Purgatory where a person MUST suffer "temporal" punishment for their sins or be cleansed of all attachment to the temporal world or whatever phrase/buzzword rationalizes the same concept, sounds suspiciously like saying that WE pay for our sins instead of the blood of Christ which Scripture very clearly says "cleanses us from all sin". Tell me, what possible reason would there be with us "paying to the last penny" a sin debt to God when we leave our human bodies at death? We are redeemed, we are made righteous, we are cleansed and purified through the blood of Jesus Christ once for all through faith. We leave behind this world, our flesh, our old sin natures when we die and we have no need for God getting even with us for past sins. The purpose of temporal punishments IN THIS LIFE is to teach us, discipline us, lead us into holy living and an aversion to sin. The thief on the cross next to Jesus, through his profession of faith in the Messiah, was redeemed and went to Paradise with him that day. His execution for theft was the government's punishment for his crime. No doubt it didn't come close to settling up accounts for his lifetime of crime.

315 posted on 12/16/2018 5:26:04 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy he saved us.)
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