I spent time after reading this thread thinking back over the gay friends of my life. My criteria for being around people is that they are “good” in my definition, not in someone else’s. Goodness, to me, has to do with love of neighbor and kindness to others, and behaving as you would want others to behave to you. What I like about Christianity are that those virtues are embedded in it. I see churches as trying to teach people to be the best that they can be. I also believe that we’re deeply affected by the people with whom we come in contact. So I can’t be around people whose traits I don’t want rubbing off on me. Only people who would help me be better.
With all those caveats, I look at the small number of gays that I’ve cared about (they try to exaggerate their numbers for political purposes) and I see uniformly good people. Since I’ve pre-selected for kindness toward others and a passion for life, I’m not saying gays are better than straights. I’m just saying that they’re as individual as straights. And there’s the same percentage of passionate churchgoers among them as among straights. They’re active volunteers and people who reach out to help those they see struggling. Yes, many of them would like the government to do the helping, sigh, but these are the ones in the trenches not of political activism, but of helping the unfortunate.
I was allowed to free think from the time I was eight years old. I take the incredible diversity of opinion of people as a strength, so I wouldn’t change a single opinion of another person to mine unless their opinions moved out of their world into mine. I don’t have friends who do that. I don’t consider that a “good” characteristic that would help me be a better person.
I can’t understand being gay. I haven’t the faintest idea if it’s nurture or nature. I can’t even go the place where women prefer other women to men. Personally, that just elicits a massive YUCK. I’ve been married to a man I respect for 48 years and consider myself purely lucky. But the gays I know are as steady in their relationships as the straights I know. No better. No worse. And I only know the ones who are good and kind and live lives that I deeply respect.
I’d hope that support for gays comes only from people knowing good gay people and not from Gay Pride marches of the strange and scary part of their society. I have to assume that that banner outside the church means they’re proselytizing Gay Pride. I’d stay away from that as fast as I’d stay away from proselytizing Christians or Muslims. But I’ll support the BELIEFS of all of those people within their own lives and ignore ALL of the proselytizing.
The problem with most gays is that they have chosen their sin to be their identifier. If you want to be a Christian, then choose Jesus Christ as your identity——not your sin. Humble yourself so that Christ can work with you and through you. The Christian church should not be a place for people to hide their sins or justify their sins, but a place for people to confront their sins and be saved from them.
Have you ever read the Bible? God’s word is abundantly clear that homosexuality is an “abomination” in God’s eyes. Homosexual people can be saved if they acknowledge their sin and repent of it. My interpretation is that if you continue live in that lifestyle and celebrate it that their eternity will be extremely bleak
It's your choice who you wish to spend time with. But that's not the issue at hand here. It never was. Your definition of "good" may not be His. That is the point. You could be describing eating a delicious cake with scores of calories. It may taste good, it may taste great, but it's really bad for you. Rather like sin.
"What I like about Christianity are that those virtues are embedded in it. I see churches as trying to teach people to be the best that they can be. I also believe that we’re deeply affected by the people with whom we come in contact. So I can’t be around people whose traits I don’t want rubbing off on me. Only people who would help me be better."
The problem here is what that entails. If a so-called Christian church is teaching their parishioners that not only sin is good, it's great, they're not Christian. They're deceivers serving the Dark One. This is teaching lies. Christ wasn't about lies, He was about truth. He would not be telling a gay congregation what they're doing will lead them to God. He would tell them to stop sinning. Some people simply don't want to hear the truth, they prefer lies. We already know where that leads.
"With all those caveats, I look at the small number of gays that I’ve cared about (they try to exaggerate their numbers for political purposes) and I see uniformly good people. Since I’ve pre-selected for kindness toward others and a passion for life, I’m not saying gays are better than straights. I’m just saying that they’re as individual as straights. And there’s the same percentage of passionate churchgoers among them as among straights. They’re active volunteers and people who reach out to help those they see struggling. Yes, many of them would like the government to do the helping, sigh, but these are the ones in the trenches not of political activism, but of helping the unfortunate."
That is fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the central point.
"I was allowed to free think from the time I was eight years old. I take the incredible diversity of opinion of people as a strength, so I wouldn’t change a single opinion of another person to mine unless their opinions moved out of their world into mine. I don’t have friends who do that. I don’t consider that a “good” characteristic that would help me be a better person."
"Free thinking," as I've seen it, is another of Satan's tricks. It usually means trying to get out and away from God's word and towards selfish behaviors/lifestyles and destructiveness. It's often the hallmark of the self-centered. The most misguided and bigoted people I've ever come across are self-described "free thinkers." Think of San Francisco en masse. They detest truth, and it shows.
"I can’t understand being gay. I haven’t the faintest idea if it’s nurture or nature. I can’t even go the place where women prefer other women to men. Personally, that just elicits a massive YUCK. I’ve been married to a man I respect for 48 years and consider myself purely lucky. But the gays I know are as steady in their relationships as the straights I know. No better. No worse. And I only know the ones who are good and kind and live lives that I deeply respect."
It still doesn't change God's position on that. Maintaining a sinful lifestyle for decades is nothing to be proud of, and similarly will not be rewarded.
"I’d hope that support for gays comes only from people knowing good gay people and not from Gay Pride marches of the strange and scary part of their society."
We've already seen their fascist agenda at work. They have no hesitation to destroy good Christian citizens who do not indeed worship THEIR sinful behavior and lifestyle choices.
"I have to assume that that banner outside the church means they’re proselytizing Gay Pride."
THAT is their religion, under the false banner of Christianity. Satanic.
"I’d stay away from that as fast as I’d stay away from proselytizing Christians or Muslims. But I’ll support the BELIEFS of all of those people within their own lives and ignore ALL of the proselytizing."
So, by that reckoning, you will ignore truth because it bothers you.
“I look at the small number of gays that I’ve cared about (they try to exaggerate their numbers for political purposes) and I see uniformly good people.”
If we are talking about good governance, the role of government is not to impose standards of morality and personal conscience or religion. However, good governance may coincide with Biblical morality whereby the government must serve to protect the rights of the individual and society as a whole. Prior laws against sodomy (and adultery, pornography, and even things like blasphemy) were based on the detrimental impact of these things on society.
Over time they became associated with religious morality exclusively, and then laws and court rulings abridged these traditional standards as imposing religious morality on others.
From a Biblical perspective, sodomy is against God’s laws. Therefore, any Bible-based Christianity has the duty to call sodomy sin, just as it must for all sin that the Bible clearly identifies. This does not mean Christians are perfect, nor does it mean that non-Christians are expected to live like Christians (or even as Christians are SUPPOSED to live). But it does mean these things are defined already. To redefine them is to abandon the basic message of the Bible. Christ came to save sinners, which all of us are.
“I can’t understand being gay. I haven’t the faintest idea if it’s nurture or nature.”
It is interesting that these are always to the options to explain any human behavior. But there is a third: choice. To the left choice is a right. To conservatives choice is a responsibility. There is a sense in which both are true. Of course nurture and nature influence us. But they do not hold absolute sway over our ability to choose. Growing up in a certain home may predispose us to various proclivities. Likewise “nature” in the sense of things like genetics may predispose certain things. But we find people from all backgrounds who make different choices from one another. So, for example, identical twins may grow up in the same environment, yet they will have distinct personalities, interests, and paths they choose to follow.
“I have to assume that that banner outside the church means they’re proselytizing Gay Pride. I’d stay away from that as fast as I’d stay away from proselytizing Christians or Muslims.”
It is the intrinsic nature of religious and moral views to seek to persuade others. Our first amendment is based on the ability to exercise religion AND free speech because persuasion is an important aspect of freedom and wise choices. However, persuasion does not mean coercion or even the right to demand that everyone listens to our free speech. This is also a choice.