Posted on 06/08/2016 9:17:22 AM PDT by MtnClimber
Sir, oftentimes the US Military will succumb to the will of the “Crowd”. Newer, better, faster, sleeker,ext, develops a need where no REQUIREMENT exists!
I’ve often said that a 38 Caliber Model 10 S&W could provide the capability we need since most studies conclude that the pistol never leaves the holster.
Everybody wants the best, most expensive pistol made until he is tasked to leave the Forward Operating Base; then he magically requires a M16 or M4. The ONLY person outside a FOB equipped with only a pistol is a General who has a PSD and a very few technicians. The only exceptions would be Machinegunner, Mortarman, Pilot and Assault Rocketmen. Of course these guys are carrying very high caliber merchandise!
Bottom Line: There is no evidence that the M9 has EVER failed anyone in training and combat. Although I would have kept the M1911A1: the M9 is bought and paid for! Why are we wasting money funding a fix for a problem that does not exist.
Sadly, I have seen this same scenario unfold countless times in my 34 years of service!
There was also the not-inconsequential matter of the sale of F-16 fighter jets to Italy at the time we adopted the M9 Beretta. That's not likely to be a factor this go-around.
Never served in Armor, have you?
Indeed. Although the Navy had several slide failures during the early days of the adoption of the M9, that primarily involved special operators, and in some cases, ammunition other than M882 ball ammo and guns with slides that had been fired in excess of 6500 rounds.
Once the SEAL teams switched to the Sig226 as their primary handgun and relegated the M9 to use for familiarization work, most of those problems ceased.
The answer is simple: once the Army acquires their 300,000 new XM17/M17 MHS handguns, transfer their old Beretta M9s to the USMC. The Marines can have their old CMI magazines too.
There’s also a different chairman of the house armed services committee. That will be crucial. Whatever his cronies want is what we’ll get.
Archy, yes, I was the Battalion Gunner for 2nd Light Armored Reconnisance Battalion.
I’m sure you and I both know there are jobs that necissatae a side arm but 90% of the force carries a long gun. And your not going to get that crewman out of a perfectly good vehicle to fight with a pistol!
That is not what tankers carry a handgun for.
Doesn't matter much for the USMC anyway:
No More Pistols?
Many U.S. Marine Corps Leaders To Carry M4
By KIMBERLY JOHNSON
The phrase “every Marine a rifleman” has taken on a whole new meaning.
The U.S. Marine Corps on June 22 announced a major shake-up in weapon assignments, saying that staff sergeants and up, as well as second lieutenants through lieutenant colonels and chief warrant officers, will now be issued the M4 carbine as their T/O, or “table of organization,” weapon — the weapon associated with their rank. Marines in those pay grades were previously issued the M9 pistol, which colonels and up will continue to carry.
Privates through sergeants will still be issued the M16A4. Assignment of automatic rifles will not change. Sailors E-5 and below who are with Marine units will be issued the M4. The remaining pay grades will still carry the pistol.
Outfitting officers and staff NCOs with greater firepower is a reflection of what’s happening on the ground in Iraq, according to the Corps’ top range officer. In years past, officers and senior enlisted could stay back and direct traffic while junior Marines did the shooting. But in a war lacking a front line, everyone totes a rifle.
“I believe it’s a matter of service policy that everyone is required to carry a long gun outside the wire,” Chief Warrant Officer 5 Daniel Luke said.
So forget the 9mm. During his tours in Iraq, Gary Wilson, now a retired colonel, said he carried an M4, a shotgun and an AK-47 rifle, along with an MP5 submachine gun with two 50-round magazines, when he went outside the wire.
“All the officers ended up carrying M4s and M16s and shotguns, because the 9mm is useless against an AK-47,” said Wilson, a reservist who has written extensively on fourth-generation warfare.
The AK-47, a Soviet-made assault rifle that’s popular with insurgents in Iraq, fires a standard 7.62mm cartridge that many combat veterans and weapon experts contend packs more “stopping power” than the lighter 5.56mm round used by the M4 and M16.
Wilson wasn’t the only commander in Iraq packing extra heat. Combat commanders are regularly exercising their ability to outfit officers and staff NCOs with rifles, said another Corps official.
“Commanders in Iraq and elsewhere have the flexibility to task organize with available resources to optimize their capabilities,” said Lt. Col. Pat Beckett, combat integration officer for the fires and maneuver integration division at Marine Corps Combat Development Command. “This policy incorporated direct input from the operating forces in order to capture ‘frontline’ requirements.”
It was unclear at press time whether this policy created a direct rank-to-weapon relationship in Iraq that had not existed before. A review of Marine photographs taken in the war zone showed Marines of every rank carrying different rifles. Some staff sergeants carried M16s, while NCOs carried M4s. Beckett, who would respond only to questions e-mailed to a spokesman, could not be reached with a request for further information.
The weapon distribution policy was set into motion in January 2006 after the Marine Requirements Oversight Council signed off on recommendations made by the Marine Corps Equipment Review Group, Beckett said.
“The priority continues to be units/individuals deployed or preparing to deploy” to Iraq, Beckett said. “The transition will be taking place over time in accordance with acquisition plans” and is based on the number of weapons delivered monthly by the manufacturer, he said. It was unclear at press time how far along that process was.
While the requirement decision has been in place, there haven’t been enough rifles to go around. Traditionally, because of its smaller size, the M4 has been issued to Marines assigned to tanks, light armored vehicles and assault amphibian vehicles.
“When the decisions were made, we had a limited amount of M4s in the arsenal,” Luke said. “Now that we’re going to 202,000 and increasing our end strength, we’re going to need more M4s.”
A bigger end strength — expected to be achieved by 2011 — also means additional M4s will be needed for the increase in support troops, such as Navy corpsmen, he added.
Archy, come on, I just said that I was the Battalion Gunner for 2nd LAR! Do you really think that I’m not jesting just a bit.
After 34 years, and retiring as the Senior Marine Gunner in the Corps, I may just know something about this stuff!
You have all my information, on a previsou post, you could google and see that I’m not just making this stuff up.
Hope so. In a world of green-on-blue killings of up to and including general officers I'd hate to see the USMC take any such losses in the senior ranks. And there've certainly been times guys in wheelies have found a handgun toi b e helpful, though I'd far prefer to see the coax used right instead. The 1975 incident involving during Operation Savannah in Angola, where SADF Lt. Lourens Van Vuuren dispatched surviving 11 Cuban soldiers with his issued 9mm Star Model B, firing his last two 8-round magazines worth through the vehicle's turret port after putting a 90mm HEAT round into the back of a troop truck.
After 34 years, and retiring as the Senior Marine Gunner in the Corps, I may just know something about this stuff!
Hope so, and I'll not at all disagree that 9 times out of 10 you're probably correct. But I am still alive and kicking because at least three times in my life I had a very usable handgun, and used it. In two of those instances, I had a long gun available but figured the short one was the better choice. In a fourth, my 1911A1 in its shoulder holster had been borrowed by my tank commander because he could wear it under his poncho instead, and I used an M3A1 greasegun instead. At a range of about four feet; it didn't make a lot of distance from an accuracy standpoint, but the handgun would have been less likely to have hung up on the lip of the TCs hatch.
You have all my information, on a previsou post, you could google and see that I’m not just making this stuff up.
I don't doubt your experience a bit, just the conclusion that where you've been/what you've done/how it worked for you will necessarily translate to what works best in other possible situations for other desperate users. I don't know very many tradesmen who only carry one tool on their toolbox.
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