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To: Colofornian

“And, unlike baseball, it’s not simply for (lack of) durability or injury pre-emptive reasons...”

Look up average ERA for pitchers per times through the batting order. The more times you see a pitcher generally the easier it is to hit off him. A big part of the offensive low problems and length/pace of game problems currently in baseball are because the bullpens are generally more effective and more used than ever before, while taking more time in pitching changes.

Freegards


34 posted on 04/20/2015 9:51:28 AM PDT by Ransomed
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To: Ransomed; Alberta's Child; All
Look up average ERA for pitchers per times through the batting order. The more times you see a pitcher generally the easier it is to hit off him.

Yes, and when you look up the NFL teams in 2014 who struggled scoring TDs in the red zone...

...Especially...
...the Jets...
...Jacksonville...
...Buffalo...

...Even tho the closer you get to the goal line, the easier it is to score...teams like the Jets were only scoring TDs thirtysix percent of the time once they got to the red zone...

So just as starting pitchers struggle with increased exposure vs. some hitters, some QBs seem to struggle more with redzone pressure.

44 posted on 04/20/2015 4:22:20 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Ransomed
Look up average ERA for pitchers per times through the batting order. The more times you see a pitcher generally the easier it is to hit off him. A big part of the offensive low problems and length/pace of game problems currently in baseball are because the bullpens are generally more effective and more used than ever before, while taking more time in pitching changes.
There's another factor people might wish to ponder when talking about relief pitching. It's not often thought about, and until I read Whitey Herzog's You're Missin' a Great Game even I never thought about it:

How many pitches did a relief pitcher throw in the bullpen before his manager brought him into the game; and, did his manager warm him up, sit him back down, then warm him up subsequently before bringing him in?

You won't necessarily see a reserve quarterback on the sideline throwing all that many warmup passes during a game. But you will see relief pitchers firing away in the bullpen in the event of trouble in the inning. You will see, still too often, a relief pitcher warmed up, sat back down, then warmed up once again. You may even see that happen two or more days' in succession. (This ain't football. We do this every day.---Earl Weaver.)

And what many people don't stop to ponder is that that reliever who was warmed up, sat down, warmed up again, and then brought into a game might already have thrown the equivalent of four or even five innings of baseball. Even a reliever who was warmed up but once before being brought in might have thrown the equivalent of three innings' ball before going into the game.

Herzog told the story that, when he had relievers on his 1980s Cardinals who moved elsewhere but returned to the Cardinals, they'd tell him which managers were clueless enough about their bullpen men by way of things like warming them, sitting them, warming them again, watching them get murdered once they finally did take the mound, and wondering why those pitchers couldn't get anyone out. Herzog singled out Tommy Lasorda (Dodgers) and Pete Rose (Reds) as the two worst such offenders.

Well, [Lasorda] won 1,600-some ballgames and two World Series, and that's no accident, but the fly in his ointment---and it baffled me, because Tommy was a pitcher himself---was that he never figured out how to handle a bullpen. He'd take a reliever and warm him up four or five times and not use him; then, he'd do the same thing the next day. The day after that, he'd put the guy in a game. He'd have nothing out there, and Tommy'd say, "Hell, you ain't pitched in two days, what's the matter with you?" Some managers think if a guy's not actually in a game, he's not pitching. But if he's tossing on the sidelines, man, he's getting hot. Over the years I dealt some of my pitchers to L.A.---[John] Tudor, [Todd] Worrell, Ricky Horton, Ken Dayler---and they always came back with the same report: Tommy was still messing up the pen.

A guy's only got so many innings in his arm. That's why I would never let Bruce Sutter or Todd Worrell or Lee Smith, my bullpen stoppers, warm up unless I knew that they were about to go in. If I didn't use them this inning, then they'd pitch the next one. I would never let them warm up without putting them in the game.

Pete Rose was like Tommy. Wonderful baseball man, but he was impaired when it came to handling pitchers. Here he had three worldclass relievers, Norm Charlton, Rob Murphy, and Rob Dibble, all in the same pen. Two were lefties; Dibble, the righty, threw 100 miles an hour. With those three guys on your side, you shouldn't lose games after the sixth. Not too damn many. But Pete found a way.

He'd get Murphy up in the third; he'd warm him up in the fourth. Then he'd sit him down. He'd get Charlton up in the fifth. Sometimes I'd look down there and he'd have both lefthanders going at the same time. Why would you warm 'em both up at once? You're only going to use one lefty or the other! Then, after he'd worked 'em out three or four times, Pete would put one in the game and be surprised he had no zip. "He can't be tired," he'd say. "He ain't pitched in three days!" Somebody counted how many times he warmed Murphy up one year and it was over 200. I like Pete, boy---but I loved managing against him.

---Whitey Herzog, in You're Missin' a Great Game.

To the original poster: You missed three men who really helped bump baseball toward the real era of the relief specialist:

* Satchel Paige, 1948-53, American League. The Negro Leagues legend was used primarily as a reliever---and a solid one---when he finally made the Show. His legend helped bring people to the park to see him, his pitching kept them there and made a few opposing managers nervous. (Casey Stengel merely added to Paige's legend when, seeing Paige warming up in the pen, he'd hector his Yankee hitters, Get your runs now---Father Time is coming!) Helped the 1948 Indians win a pennant, then grinned and bore it with the last lame St. Louis Browns teams, though he did lead the American League in games finished in 1952 though it was clear enough that the real Father Time was finally catching up to him.

* Joe Page, 1947-49 Yankees. Big guy. Threw like a howitzer. His career year was 1949 (including winning the first World Series MVP award); the next season, felt a pop in his hip and the spring after that something blew in his arm. Never the same pitcher again; his taste for carousing didn't help, but Page

* Jim Konstanty, 1950 Phillies. Konstanty was 37 when he won the 1950 National League MVP, making his living in relief with the Whiz Kids Phillies; never a power pitcher, Konstanty made his living with a tight slider and a dancing changeup, and set a record by appearing in 74 games that season. He remains the only relief pitcher ever to win the National League MVP and was credited retroactively with 22 saves in addition to his 16-7 won-lost record, and his 2.66 ERA, though his fielding-independent pitching average of 3.77 tells you how often and how smartly Konstanty pitched to his defenders considering he wasn't a strikeout pitcher: 56 punchouts in 152 innings that year.

Now, I wonder: So much talk for years enough about the one-inning closer . . . yet how many innings' worth of warmup pitches did the like of Dennis Eckersley, Trevor Hoffman, or The Mariano himself pitch before getting into each night's game?

51 posted on 04/21/2015 7:45:14 PM PDT by BluesDuke (BluesDuke'll be back on the same corner in front of the cigar store . . .)
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