Should Homeowners With Solar Panels Pay To Maintain Electrical Grid?

NPR ^ | 11 Dec 2014 | Peter Overby

[Rodamala]

The costs of solar energy are plummeting, and now are about on par with the electricity generated at big power plants...

The math only works when you get a big fat subsidy or tax break.

[ImJustAnotherOkie]

Exactly what I was referring to.

[Ted Grant]

They still use the grid.

[skeeter]

For the cost of the electricity that is fair, but don't forget the cost of building and maintaining the infrastructure to deliver that electricity he does use.

They'd have to convince me that that is not already built into the per kilowatt hour cost.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

I’m pretty sure somebody got a subsidy. And an eye sore is an eye sore. You are imposing an aesthetic cost on your neighbors. A mass of steel on your roof is inherently dangerous and inconvenient, should you need to reshingle or perform maintenance up there.

[familyop]

"I’m pretty sure somebody got a subsidy."

I didn't get the tax credit. The PV modules came from a manufacturer that's serious about producing, competing and getting a profit.

"And an eye sore is an eye sore. You are imposing an aesthetic cost on your neighbors."

Several older couples were recently foreclosed in my area and moved away. They all expressed opinions about their neighbors--opinions based on appearances. They had all recently moved to the Rockies from northeastern states. The remainder of them will likely follow.

A note of interest to some. One of the Prophets told of such people and what will happen to them.

Obviously, real estate will go down for a very long time. Energy costs will go much higher. People who use alternative energy in small, humble, efficient houses are going to win. Landlords with such houses will also win.

"A mass of steel on your roof is inherently dangerous and inconvenient, should you need to reshingle or perform maintenance up there."

It's not steel. The rails and module frames are aluminum. Other than that, silicon, tempered glass, etc. There's no lead, either. Modules are on posts instead of roofs in my locale. They're engineered to withstand more than a 140 mph wind load. They don't cost much.

But if there's a need to move them, I'll put covers on the modules, flip a switch to shut off module current to the controller and use a tool to disconnect the MC4 connectors. It's quick, easy and safe. Folks who don't use the National Electrical Code and electrical safety experience can hire someone to do it at low cost (very little time required).

With the default process, aesthetics, regulations, regulators, HOAs and property prices will soon be unimportant indeed. Small machine shops and other truly productive activities will resume production everywhere.

[familyop]

That’s another closely related subject. Soon, much less centralized and more distributed production of everything necessary for a thriving economy will begin in every community in several countries, and many new communities will rise in rural areas from new, small production starts. The support for the project and hundreds of sub-projects is enormous.

It’s already been in the works for quite a while toward the right moment and has been put to tests in several seed communities. We’ll see men and women off all adult ages making products of real, good use again in a much more solid and secure distributed system made up of many thousands of communities. And they’ll be having multitudes of happy children.

[tacticalogic]

They'd have to convince me that that is not already built into the per kilowatt hour cost.

Residential power generation changes the dynamics. If you've got enough solar generation capacity to power your home, then the grid is a backup that you're going to expect to stand in for the solar panels if they fail. If you never use it then the power company is building and maintaining the grid to your home for free. The only way they can recoup that cost is to charge the other customers more per KWH.

[familyop]

The combiner boxes and conduit are steel, by the way, but they don’t weigh much. You’re an engineer? I’m surprised. An old EE PE recently advised my daughter to go into a technology instead of engineering. She had already decided to attend a machining school for a couple of years because of what she’s seen from engineers stealing from owner-builders through local governments (their expensive stamps on our correct and finished designs to codes).

[skeeter]

Fine. But PG&E just jacked my rates up nearly 40% in the past year, I wonder what rational economic reason there was for that.

[mrsmith]

” People with no connection to the power grid”

Fine.

People who are connected sell their excess to the company at a fascist government determined rate that all other customers must make up for (subsidize).

A fair rate would be significantly below the wholesale rate the utility pays it’s reliable wholesale suppliers.
Unreliable power is worth significantly less.
Left to the market the distributed, intermittent electricity produced by homes would be valued at practically nothing.

The biggest subsidy of home PV is mandating that the utility’s other customers must pay outrageous prices for the excess produced- even as ridiculously much as the retail price!

This article is obfuscation with it’s focus on the grid cost.

[familyop]

True. Another reason for rates going up in many cities is that of natural gas interests recently pushing the government to shut down some coal-fired plants and pushing up the costs of others.

[mrsmith]

Well, Nat gas is dirt cheap and a good economic choice today.
Of course in 10 years it may not be. Demand and supply will equalize.
You can’t beat coal.

BTW I’m a big fan of passive solar. Have even designed a HW heater I’ll put in in spring when I have the money and weather. People are crazy not to do the simple things to utilize passive.

[Edward Teach]

The truth be known, this whole discussion is redundant.
The cost per kW that the utilities charge regular customers factors in grid maintenance, does it not? There’s no reason why that same factor can’t be worked in when the meter is running in the other direction so to speak, with respect to how much the utility pays or credits customers who use solar and sell their excess.

[familyop]

Agreed. Solar is much better for heating than electricity. Drainback systems for hot water and floor heating with collectors and tanks can work very well in extremely cold, sunny areas if properly built, but mechanical code regulations require stealth installs with quick disconnects for homebuilt collectors (superior to overly costly commercial collectors) and heat exchangers.

Rocket stove mass heaters are also much less costly than forced air furnaces and $20,000 masonry heaters, but the coming EPA regulations pushed by global corporates and local governments will also require those to be stealth installs (very low heat and smoke emissions). But that’s okay. Solar-radiant heating systems and especially rocket mass heaters are great for stealth installs.

[Homebuilt mass heaters and solar-radiant drainback systems are not suitable for people with mortgages, because such systems may prevent homeowners from buying insurance. Those systems are best for small, efficient houses built by do-it-yourself-ers who can quickly and easily rebuild.]

[familyop]

Agreed on passive, though. It’s the best and should take priority for a homeowner over active systems. Thanks for bringing that up.

[mrsmith]

Well, of course MY passive HW design solves all those problems, and freezing and overheating too- at least on paper LOL!
It does remove the little-discussed risk of legionnaire and other disease from stagnant ‘warm’ water too.

But simple eaves, awnings and ‘solar spaces’ have tremendous quick paybacks and savings, on par with insulating and draft-proofing.

[familyop]

"Well, of course MY passive HW design solves all those problems, and freezing and overheating too- at least on paper LOL!"

Well done! I poured over quite a few passive hot water designs for a system here, but the climate is different. During winter here, temps go down into the minus 30s Fahrenheit, and wind gusts, to about 110 mph. So an active system was needed (this, with some modifications).

"It does remove the little-discussed risk of legionnaire and other disease from stagnant ‘warm’ water too."

That's very important. Very well done! Yes, storage temperatures must be kept a little more than high enough to kill the bugs, and periodical sanitizing is a good supplement to maintenance (once per year water test, change and sanitize working in my area and climate).

[mrsmith]

Yeah, I remember seeing that in my researches (very good site)... and thinking “Oh no! There’s got to be a better way!” LOL!
But for that kind of system it struck me as a very good design.

Can you quantify it’s performance and payback?
Or are you just satisfied that it makes a significant improvement in cost and comfort.

[WhoisAlanGreenspan?]

Checked into “rocket mass heaters” tonight, very interesting. Thanks!