Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: DiogenesLamp
However, why didn't the Southern states have just as much right to their independence as did the colonies from Britain?

First of all, there was zero in the way of oppression from the Federal government upon the South. Repeat === zero oppression. The government in power at that time was pro Southern in sympathy. They had no grievance, let alone grievance that justified secession.

Secession was a long sought desire of the Slave Power beginning with Calhoon in the 1830s.

The election of Lincoln, who opposed the expansion of slavery was an excuse for the slave power to do what they wanted to do for 30 or more years.

If the South had gone through Congress and presented their justification for separation, they could have been successful, but the fact is that in making their arguments that might have convinced congress, they would likely lost the support of the non-slave owning populations of their own states.

In my personal opinion, if the southern states had made secession a political process -- i.e. used the same process for admission of the states in reverse -- they could have been successful. The North was a sick of them as they were with the North.

But... once you fire on the Flag, you rightfully have a problem.

46 posted on 11/25/2014 6:37:27 PM PST by Ditto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies ]


To: Ditto
First of all, there was zero in the way of oppression from the Federal government upon the South. Repeat === zero oppression. The government in power at that time was pro Southern in sympathy. They had no grievance, let alone grievance that justified secession.

If they had no grievance, then why did they do it? I think what you are trying to say is that they had no grievance with which *YOU* agreed, but in their own eyes they believed they did.

Secession was a long sought desire of the Slave Power beginning with Calhoon in the 1830s.

The election of Lincoln, who opposed the expansion of slavery was an excuse for the slave power to do what they wanted to do for 30 or more years.

I don't think your knowledge of History is complete. They were wary of this Union business right from the beginning and one of the reasons for their wariness was a concern about how it was going to affect their economic interests in the institution of slavery.

They were assured that it would not, and provisions to acknowledge and accommodate slavery were written right into the constitution. The Northern states (in which slavery was also still legal at this time) felt that they needed the Southern states to strengthen the nation they wanted to create, and they made the Devil's bargain with them to get them.

If the South had gone through Congress and presented their justification for separation, they could have been successful, but the fact is that in making their arguments that might have convinced congress, they would likely lost the support of the non-slave owning populations of their own states.

Do you think there was a single member of congress who was not aware of the South's desire to secede? Are you saying that because they didn't apply the proper quantity of pomp and circumstance that their right to self determination is invalid?

In my personal opinion, if the southern states had made secession a political process -- i.e. used the same process for admission of the states in reverse -- they could have been successful. The North was a sick of them as they were with the North.

But they didn't mind buying the Cotton. What they wanted was their new found morals *and* the product of slavery too. It's like those here in this country decrying cheap labor yet buying those t-shirts and shoes from countries that employ it because it suits their pockets.

But... once you fire on the Flag, you rightfully have a problem.

And I agree, this was where they made a serious mistake. As a matter of fact, this event was crucial to justifying the start of the civil war. Of course the fact that it was just a big show, and that no one was actually killed in the attack was irrelevant at the time.

Lincoln needed an event to rally Northern Opinion into supporting a war to stop Southern secession, and this attack gave him the tools he needed to do so. As I mentioned earlier, I have a friend who is black and a History major (with an obsession about this stuff) who is convinced that Lincoln cleverly created the whole event to produce the justification to do what he badly wanted to do anyway.

He does point out that Secretary of War Cameron had sent a letter to Robert Anderson advising him to surrender if he needed to.

It is not, however, the intention of the President to subject your command to any danger or hardship beyond what, in your judgement, would be usual in military life; and he has entire confidence that you will act as becomes a patriot and a soldier, under all circumstances.

Whenever, if at all, in your judgment, to save yourself and command, a capitulation becomes a necessity, you are authorized to make it. [Respectfully SIMON CAMERON.]

He regards this as evidence that Lincoln expected his message to South Carolina Gov. Francis Wilkinson Pickens informing him he was going to resupply the fort would result in their attacking it. Which is exactly what happened.

My friend thinks Lincoln engineered the start of the civil war. Apparently he is not alone in his thinking.

Lincoln was an extremely clever man, and the idea that he played these people like a fiddle is plausible from what I can see, but whether or not this was true, they were stupid to attack that fort. Had they not done so, they would have very likely gotten away with Independence.

I wish to further add, none of my family was here in this country until long after all this was over. (except my Indian ancestors, but I hardly think they count as preferring one side over the other.) I do not live in a former Confederate state and so I have not been exposed to a one sided pro-Southern history.

I do not have a dog in this fight. I am just calling it like I see it.

48 posted on 11/26/2014 8:13:55 AM PST by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson