"Good. Out of the door...Line on the left...one cross each."
Posted on 05/06/2014 9:24:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Killing a human being turns out to be surpassingly hard to do.
This was made gruesomely apparent in Oklahoma last week, when the state tried to execute a convicted murderer named Clayton Lockett by injecting him with a new and secret mix of deadly chemicals. "Man," Lockett moaned, sixteen minutes after the injection and long after he was supposed to be dead, and he tried to get up, and began to writhe and jerk on the gurney until prison officials closed a curtain to keep the witnesses from seeing the rest of the episode. Alarm set in. The doctor on hand told state officials that Lockett had not received enough chemicals to kill him, but that there were no more chemicals on hand. There were debates over whether to take the prisoner to a hospital. Forty-three minutes after injection, Lockett had a massive heart attack (this was not part of the state's plan) and died.
Even under controlled circumstances like state executions — in which the executed has no freedom of movement, no ability to resist, in which the state is in complete control — human beings prove surprisingly resilient. Over the past century, 3 percent of hangings have been botched, and about 2 percent of electrocutions. More than 5 percent of gassings in state-operated gas chambers went awry. Lethal injections have become the most common mode of execution in the United States, but they are more error-prone still: 7 percent of them are botched. Which means that subsumed into the deep and difficult question of why we are executing prisoners at all is another question, more tangible but just as telling: Why are we killing them in the least effective way?
(Excerpt) Read more at nymag.com ...
Not really, or there’d be a lot fewer people in prison.
Capital punishment is an unjust consequence...
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A life for a life is the epitome of justice.
For justice to be done, a harm perpetrated upon someone necessitates equal repayment by the perpetrator to the victim, plus whatever further loss was incurred by being denied use of the original loss.
In property crime, such as thievery or arson, that repayment is easily calculated since the property usually has a monetary value.
In corporal crime, it’s a bit tougher, since our bodies are not generally assigned a monetary value. So the only repayment that really can be considered justice is corporal punishment in equal measure to the crime.
Only in the last 200 years or so have we (Western civilization) decided that this is barbaric. So we have taken to imprisonment (or loss of freedom) as a repayment.
Only in the last 100 years, we’ve lost complete touch with why we’re doing what we’re doing, and decided that imprisonment is supposed to be for rehabilitation and not punishment.
So congratulations for falling into this trap of week-kneed progressives, and attributing your “enlightenment” to you thinking like Jesus, who didn’t save the lives of the thieves next to Him on Calvary, nor saved the lives of countless others who were executed during His life.
He was not in an official capacity to do so (soon he will be), but when given the opportunity, he did rescue a capital offender from capital punishment (John 8:3-11).
Plus some scripture showing punishment for earthly crime was also part of God's instruction to us.
Reference?
re: “The point here is not “forgiveness” in a vacuum, but payment for a criminal act. The act has already been condemned and judged and purposeful double condemnation and double judgement upon the same person for the same crime is unjust and immoral.”
I’m afraid you’ll have an argument from the Apostle Paul. I note that you didn’t respond to that passage in Romans 13.
You equate Jesus’s sacrifice with removing human guilt not only with God, but also between all human beings. Such an idea is not taught anywhere in the Scriptures.
You appear to equate all legal penalties for violations of the law as “vengeance”. Vengeance is when one personally takes revenge on another who has wronged you. That is NOT what the death penalty or any other penalty for violations of the law are. Consequences for theft, arson, rape, murder, etc. as prescribed by the law is the process for attaining “justice”, not vengeance.
A murderer is executed, not for vengeance sake, but for justice sake. If you think there is something wrong with legal penalties for willful violations of the law, and define them as “vengeance”, then there is something wrong with your definition of vengeance and justice.
The idea that convicting someone for theft, rape or murder is somehow “double jeopardy” and therefore “unjust” and “immoral”, because Jesus died on the cross for our sins, is totally absurd.
What Jesus accomplished on the cross has nothing to do with human crimes against each other, other than the repentant person will be forgiven by God for their sin in regard to eternal punishment. Individuals may forgive one another. Christians are commanded to forgive all ask for that forgiveness, but that doesn’t mean that there are no legal consequences for crimes committed against one another. That is a separate issue.
re: “It is about Justice, not Vengeance.”
Exactly. Totally agree.
Interesting that just before, in Chapt 12, scripture admonishes not to avenge yourselves, that God will take care of it, one way or the other. Despite your denials, vengeance or "retribution" is probably THE major reason the criminal justice system and supporters are for CP. You don't have to go very far to see that. Just read the posts on this thread. Is there a concern for "justice" or "vengeance"? What's the difference between "justice" and "vengeance"? On this thread and elsewhere, pretty much justice = vengeance.
I also think there's pretty good evidence of what I'm saying. A society that favors CP, cultivates a culture of vengeance and death. Again, just reading what's posted here makes that pretty plain. Do these things make people happy? No, I think that's pretty obvious. Vengeance just makes you feel good for awhile, but in the long run, a vengeful society is an unhappy society. A society that refrains from CP and looks for other meaningful consequences cultivates a culture of life and will be happier and more peaceful, IMO.
Maybe you are presuming too much to believe that you know how God wants to decide the fate of a murderer. He has given us free will for a reason. How we decide as citizens to deal with persons whose crimes are truly heinous, who continue to present a danger even to their fellow prisoners and guards, and who might reoffend if ever paroled or escaped -- these are all tests of our free will. We have an obligation as a society to defend the safety of society and the innocent and vulnerable among us who might be harmed by a totally unrepentant criminal (and sinner) such as this man, who even made a video bragging about how he murdered this innocent girl.
Jesus died for our sins; but he also said he would turn away from those who fail to heed God's law and who remain unrepentant and arrogant. He died for those who recognize Him.
Did you read my post # 56? I address much of what you’re talking about, first on the list being protecting society. I also address Romans Chapt 13 on post #108.
Whatever way is used, if the one being executed dies the method is just fine!
like in Oklahoma, he died so the method was great!
Not if some else has already purposefully paid the full punishment for that precise, heinous act. Punishing him for precisely what another has already been punished is unjust and immoral double condemnation and double judgement.
You must look somewhere other than punishment for valid, meaningful consequences for his criminal, heinous act.
The only thing that has been violated is the natural, human outrage for vengeance. But natural, human reactions aren't always just or moral. As the Bible says, "For the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God" James 1:20.
Vengeance is “payback” or “taking revenge” by an individual or individuals toward someone who harmed them. Individuals do not have the authority to enact “vengeance” - only God and those He has authorized have that authority.
Justice is the process or result of using laws to fairly judge the criminal acts of a person. That role is given to government by God. Only government has the authority to mete out justice on criminals. It’s imperfect, but it’s the best we have on earth.
As individuals, we are not to take the law into our own hands. Because there are people who say crass things on FR doesn’t mean that government does not have the role to carry out justice, and, if necessary, that includes the death penalty.
Also, vengeance in and of itself is not a “negative”. It is a negative only if carried out by an individual.
In regard to Romans 12, the context of that chapter is when we, as Christians, suffer for being a Christian, we are to rely on God for justice and vengeance - not ourselves. This has nothing to do with God giving government the role, on earth, to enact justice on those who commit crimes. Otherwise, Paul contradicted himself in chapter 13.
Romans 13 doesn’t leave much room for a “variety of interpretations”. Basically, Paul says God gave government to provide law and order for society, and, it has authority to punish those who do evil. That’s it. It doesn’t mean government is always just or right, but, as long as it doesn’t violate God’s law, then we are to respect and obey it.
You’ve obviously made up your mind on this, so I will leave it with you and God.
See post #56. That’s a start.
"Good. Out of the door...Line on the left...one cross each."
I don’t agree with your line of reasoning, but I can agree that what Jesus accomplished on our behalf is profound and radically altered man’s hopeless position. Civil punishment, per Paul, is rightly meted out to evil doers. God can draw some men even in the midst of the death penalty, so no limits there (except for the likely hardened hearts of men who murder).
Today I had to have a Bone Marrow Biopsy since it appears my Leukemia has returned with a vengeance. They gave me “light sedation”, (not General Anesthesia), through an IV and I was out like a light.
Even after they plunged a six inch needle into my Pelvis, having to break through the Bone, I did not awaken.
It's the third Bone Marrow Biopsy I have been through and the experience has remained the same for all of them.
That being said, nothing beats a good old Firing Squad or a short Rope and a tall Tree.
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