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To: LaRueLaDue; eartrumpet; roamer_1; Renfield

Thank y’all for the input. Still having trouble with early man developing materials to build traps and plan hunting expeditions for large, threatening mammoths. Perhaps they did chase them over cliffs or built corrals out of fallen trees and vines. I just don’t see them as having manufactured rope, metal and sufficient numbers to accomplish ‘hunting trips’. More like accidental luck when the mammoths succumbed to natural causes, accidents or other predatory animals. Also must have taken a lot of flint tools to butcher the carcasses. Much more practical to catch small critters.

Still a good discussion. Thx. Now I’ll go to the library;)


35 posted on 09/13/2013 5:26:41 AM PDT by sodpoodle (Life is prickly - carry tweezers.)
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To: sodpoodle

Be assured that “early” man was fully capable of doing all this, and perhaps more that we don’t know about (since all actions don’t leave archaeological remains).

Don’t forget that “early” man was in reality fully modern in terms of mental and cultural capabilities. What they were mainly lacking was more advanced technologies, such as metal working, electronics, etc. that we think are indispensable for life; but in reality these technologies are not required for advanced cultures or ways of life.

They had all that you mentioned (ropes, corrals, etc.) and more; and in a lot of cases, flint/stone tools are superior to “modern” tools (i.e. metal/steel) for some tasks, such as dressing out kills (look up archaeological studies that tested out using such tools for tasks such as potential for killing, penetration, dressing carcasses, etc.). Stone tools are actually sharper than steel tools, keep their edges longer, and are easier to re-sharpen. (They are just lacking the tensile strength of steel.)

Don’t sell early man and their technologies short. We (modern men) tend to look disdainfully down on earlier cultures for no reason other than they were before us. Culture doesn’t necessarily “evolve” in one direction.


36 posted on 09/13/2013 9:53:04 AM PDT by LaRueLaDue
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To: sodpoodle
"Still having trouble with early man developing materials to build traps and plan hunting expeditions for large, threatening mammoths."

Yeah, those guys were chimps. /s

There is no doubt they hunted and killed mammoths with regularity. However, the claim that they hunted the mammoths to extinction is b.s. And those "early" men of 20,000 years ago had the same mental abilities that modern people do.

38 posted on 09/13/2013 4:16:17 PM PDT by Flag_This (Term limits.)
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To: sodpoodle
I have found obsidian veins where the Indians would show up and camp for a while. They would rough out blanks for arrowheads and lances and knives then leave for their other places. That cut down on weight of the nodules. All around the vein and chips and flakes from roughing the blanks, but no broken points where they finished them.

I always pick up any obsidian I find. Sometimes a small flake will have one sharp edge. Get to handling it and suddenly you find a way it fits between your thumb and a finger or two very comfortably, and leaves the razor edge exposed for cutting.

A few years back we were about to skin an elk and my boy asked if we could use obsidian. Why not? He got a hunk and I am not a good knapper, but I can whack a hunk with a rock until a big flake comes off. And it comes of ridiculously sharp. I sliced inside the legs and down the belly faster than any knife ever did. The sharp edge was a semi-circle about 4" long and made an incredible skinning blade and the elk was done in minutes.

And sometimes, it helps to get lucky when hunting the big stuff


39 posted on 09/13/2013 4:56:13 PM PDT by eartrumpet
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To: sodpoodle; LaRueLaDue; eartrumpet; roamer_1; Renfield; Alas Babylon!; SunkenCiv
Still having trouble with early man developing materials ... and plan hunting expeditions ...

You might investigate the John Marshall film The Hunters. There's a youtube video blurb that introduces the subjects.

Shot in the early '50s, Marshall follows the Ju/'hoansi, a band of diminutive Kalahari Bushmen, as they successfully hunt a giraffe with their toy-like neurotoxin laced arrow. I submit that a giraffe certainly qualifies as mega fauna. Certainly some of their tool kit utilizes modern materials, but not to the extent that it changes the outcome.

Briefly, scouting parties deploy, one group finds and shoots a giraffe and subsequently follows for several days as the neurotoxin takes effect. When the quarry is finally brought down, the band assembles to butcher, transport, distribute, and preserve their bounty.

You should have more confidence in the ability of your fellow man to adapt and profit in their environment.

45 posted on 09/14/2013 2:51:27 AM PDT by kitchen (Make plans and prepare. You'll never have trouble if you're ready for it. - TR)
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To: sodpoodle; LaRueLaDue; eartrumpet; roamer_1; Renfield; trisham
[...] I just don’t see them as having manufactured rope, metal and sufficient numbers to accomplish ‘hunting trips’. More like accidental luck when the mammoths succumbed to natural causes, accidents or other predatory animals. Also must have taken a lot of flint tools to butcher the carcasses. Much more practical to catch small critters.

As for rope, give me a nettle patch and an afternoon, and I can make you more cordage than you ever thought possible - and nettles grow everywhere. And that cordage can be twisted together to make very serviceable ropes. And for more strength and durability, let's not forget sinew and rawhide, which would probably be used for things needing more permanence (putting an axe head onto an handle, as an instance).

Metal is overrated. Again, give me an afternoon and a decent quarry site, and I will hand you a serviceable axe, a knife, six arrow-heads, and a spear-point. The difficulty is really not in the knapping (albeit that it takes a touch), so much as in the handles. Finding long, straight shafts can really be a difficulty... Shaping wood is very hard, and binding the stone to the handle is equally difficult using plant-based cordage (only necessary until one gets a kill, where rawhide or gut will do much better). Really, the stone work is the 'easy' part.

Flint and obsidian are surprisingly durable, and putting an edge back on is not a terrible chore.

Small game is probably easier - in that you are correct - but small game is virtually *gone* in the winter, when it is very difficult to move around. No, I will guarantee that large prey was certainly on the menu, and for the same reason that a moose is preferred to a deer... One hunt can guarantee the winter for a family. One mammoth would likewise supply the needs for possibly four families in the same case.

No doubt, an Hunter-Gatherer tribe would certainly take advantage of carrion and wounded animals, but these cannot be *counted on*. There is no doubt in my mind that large animals were hunted purposefully.

50 posted on 09/14/2013 12:34:50 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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