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Still no formal repudiation. Let June 8th be a day of shame [Seeing Lds racism for what it was]
Mormon Coffee (MRM.org) ^ | June 8, 2013 | Sharon Lindbloom

Posted on 06/08/2013 9:00:01 PM PDT by Colofornian

In honor of the 35th anniversary of Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball’s announcement of the end of the priesthood ban against black Mormons (D&C Declaration 2), we are reposting Aaron Shafovaloff’s 30th anniversary article, “Shame, Shame, Shame: Thirty Years Later And Still No Apology.”

Still Repairing Brigham’s Mess

Mormon apologist Blake Ostler once said, “I personally believe that [Brigham Young’s] theology was a disaster for the most part” (>>). We have multiple reasons to concur with Blake (more than he would agree with), as Mormonism has spent much of its post-Brigham history picking up the pieces from the catastrophic mess of theology he left behind. The 1916 First Presidency statement on divine investiture and Elohim/Jehovah identities was largely driven by an effort to repair Brigham Young’s damaging Adam-God teaching. Contrary to the notion that it died with Brigham, it had carried well on into the 20th century. Some Mormons today are deeply embarrassed over Young’s teaching that Jesus was physically conceived by a natural union between Mary and the Father (who, for Brigham, of course, was Adam). Many Mormons have tragically settled for an “I don’t know” answer to the question of whether sexual intercourse was involved in the conception of Christ. Along with Adam-God, Brigham’s teaching that God still progresses in knowledge and power was condemned as a deadly, damning heresy by apostle Bruce McConkie. Then there’s individual blood atonement, men living on the Sun, participation in polygamy being absolutely necessary for Celestial exaltation, and on, and on. Many Mormons quietly write off Brigham Young as a crazy old uncle who has said very stupid, very irresponsible, very embarrassing, very damaging things. The problem is that he happened to say most of these things from the Tabernacle pulpit in a position of influential leadership and self-claimed prophetic authority. Mormons today try to laugh it off. Stephen Robinson even suggested that Adam-God might have been a joke. But at the end of the day Christians aren’t laughing. We have a higher standard for prophets than Mormonism allows. For us, becoming a Mormon would mean drastically lowering the bar for men who claim to be God’s living spokesmen on earth.

Reversing a “Direct Commandment of the Lord” Based Upon a “Doctrine of the Church”

On June 8, 1978, Mormonism attempted to reverse yet another one of Brigham’s embarrassing doctrines, the ban on blacks from holding the Mormon priesthood. The dominant historical explanation given for the ban was an appeal to pre-mortal decisions or indecisions. Negros were not as valiant in the pre-existence, and were cursed with the mark of Cain, black skin. This explanation was taught and expressed by LDS prophets and apostles, from Conference pulpits to a First Presidency statement:

“The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said, ‘Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their father’s rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God.’ They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and receive all the blessings we are entitled to.’ President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: ‘The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.’ The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.” (Official First Presidency statement, August 17, 1951 [some sources date this to 1949], cf. John Lewis Lund, The Church and the Negro, p.89).

Mere Folklore or Institutionalized Racism?

In spite of this, Mormon leaders today continue to say things like,

“When you think about it, that’s just what it is — folklore. It’s never really been official doctrine… We have to keep in mind that it’s folklore and not doctrine… It’s never been recorded as such” (LDS General Authority Sheldon F. Child, quoted in “LDS marking 30-year milestone”, by Carrie A. Moore, Deseret News, June 7, 2008).

“This folklore is not part of and never was taught as doctrine by the church” (LDS spokesman Mark Tuttle, quoted in “Mormon and Black”, by Peggy Fletcher Stack, Salt Lake Tribune, June 7, 2008)

This gives the impression that the teaching and belief had a mere bottom-dwelling existence, only kept alive by the culture in a way not initiated by or acquiesced to by the overarching institution. In the dictionary, “folklore” is defined as unwritten lore that is passed down through tradition or anecdote. Calling the “curse of Cain” teaching mere folklore obscures the fact that it was institutionally promoted and institutionally perpetuated—publicly and explicitly and in writing. It was rooted in the teachings of men considered to be prophets and apostles, the conduits of prophetic counsel and the stream of continuing revelation.

No One Needs the Mormon Priesthood Anyway

As a Christian I find the reversal on one level insignificant. The Aaronic priesthood is, according to Hebrews, “useless”, “weak”, and “obsolete”, a shadow of the Messiah to come who would serve as our sufficient sacrifice and priest. The “Aaronic priesthood” of Mormonism today doesn’t remotely follow the functions of the priesthood as described by the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Melchizedek is held up as an analogy for Christ’s unique priestly role and identity, but there is never described an ordained Melchizedek priesthood that flows from Christ to male followers. Mormonism simply reads Joseph Smith’s imaginary priesthood structure into the Bible. And I am not at all interested in obeying Satan when he tells people, “See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness.” Christians don’t feel like any non-Mormon Christian is missing out from Mormon temples. In Christ “are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Colossians 2:3). Our intensified experiences with God and his people come through, among other things, reading his word, serving, singing, loving, suffering, praying, communing with our brotherhood in Christ, being swallowed up in the bigness of God’s creation. We don’t have to step inside a building to experience the Holy Spirit in a deeper way. Christians have the permanently indwelling Holy Spirit, immediately accessible, received at conversion in the same way we received justification and the forgiveness of sins: by grace through faith apart from personal works or merit or earning or worthiness. It is Mormons, white and black, who are missing out by being led astray from having a two-way personal relationship with Jesus Christ, based on the foundation of freely received eternal life.

Prevented From Being Complete Followers and Servants of Jesus?

In his book In the Lord’s Due Time, the first black to receive the Mormon priesthood after the 1978 reversal, Joseph Freeman, tells of hearing about the priesthood announcement. He writes,

“As I hung up the phone, little beads of perspiration broke out on my forehead, and my knees began to shake uncontrollably. It was true! It was really true! I could hold the priesthood! My lifetime dream of becoming a complete follower and servant of Jesus had come true.”

Did you catch that? Mormonism had deceived Freeman into thinking that, because he was black and because he couldn’t enter into a man-made temple, he could not yet be a complete follower and servant of Christ. Let that sink in.

Withholding blessings of the New Testament church (whatever one deems those blessings to be) from people based on skin-color or ethnicity reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel. The promise and assurance of the fullness of eternal life is not for the religious elite, but for the brokenhearted, coffee-drinking, cigarette-smoking, nose-pierced, foul-mouthed, rough-edged, self-despairing, barely spiritual, unworthy moral failures who come to Christ with the empty hand of faith, trusting him for the free promise of eternal life and the heart-changing indwelling of the Spirit. Scripture doesn’t take this lightly. Come to Christ with empty hands and you will have eternal joy. Put up the divisive, unscriptural barriers of moralism or ethnicity or skin-color or quasi-masonic or distinctively Jewish ordinances, and you incite what John Piper calls the “compassionate rage” of true apostles like Paul, who start calling down anathema (Galatians 1:6-9).

Institutional Integrity Demands an Apology and a Repudiation

Mormon apostle Jeffrey Holland seems to have at least a partial understanding of the institutional responsibility Mormonism has to make right the wrongs. In an interview associated with the PBS special, “The Mormons”, he said the following regarding actions the Mormon Church could take to make sure that the curse of Cain teaching isn’t perpetuated:

“I think we can be unequivocal and we can be declarative in our current literature, in books that we reproduce, in teachings that go forward, whatever, that from this time forward, from 1978 forward, we can make sure that nothing of that is declared. That may be where we still need to make sure that we’re absolutely dutiful, that we put [a] careful eye of scrutiny on anything from earlier writings and teachings, just [to] make sure that that’s not perpetuated in the present. That’s the least, I think, of our current responsibilities on that topic.” (>>)

The problem for Holland is that he has bought into a shallow, inadequate, and irresponsible way of dealing with false teachings and false beliefs once promoted by Mormon prophets and apostles. In a noteworthy Mormon blog post called, “How does Mormon doctrine die?“, Margaret Young is quoted as saying,

“Card-carrying Mormons do often believe that Blacks were fence sitters in the pre-existence and that polygamy is essential to eternal progression. Neither position has been formally repudiated by the powers that be. We have merely distanced ourselves from them.”

Kaimi Wenger, the author of the post, goes on to write:

“To the extent that they are not repeated and reinforced, unrepudiated ideas slowly fade from the community’s consciousness. This is in large degree because of the structure of Mormon belief. Mormon theology is unusually informal, vague and undefined. Because the church does not issue encyclicals or Summa Theologica, our theology is largely of the what-the-prophets-say-today variety… Our belief structure being what it is, [old ideas] cannot truly be killed — but neither are they really alive.“

Mormon leaders depend on this. Formal repudiation is avoided by Mormon leaders, as it would highlight the fallibility of church leaders (particularly prophets and apostles) and potentially bring a sensitive, embarrassing issue to light, prompting many to investigate material from earlier Church leaders which isn’t faith-promoting. Explicit, formal repudiation of past teaching that names names and quotes quotes would set a dangerous precedent in a religion which fosters so much dependency on the reliability of the institution’s succession of leaders. To save face, Mormon leaders opt for a quiet way of distancing old ideas, allowing them to continue amongst the culture in part, but betting on the forgetfulness and historical ignorance of future generations.

Authentic repentance, integrity, and love for people would demand not only a distancing by a lack of repetition, but also a formal, official, explicit apology for and repudiation of the priesthood ban and the teachings historically used to theologically justify it. Mormonism’s institution arrogantly sees itself as above having to give an apology for things like this. In fact, Mormonism has fallen short of even admitting the priesthood ban was wrong or racist. Gordon B. Hinckley had the audacity to say of the ban, “I don’t think it was wrong.” Marcus Martins, a black Mormon and the chair of the department of religious education at BYU-Hawaii, has been warped into thinking “The [priesthood] ban itself was not racist“.

Aspects and echos of the principles behind the curse of Cain teaching continue still today. At a recent BYU devotional the dean of Religious Education, Terry Ball, said,

“Have you ever wondered why you were born where and when you were born? Why were you not born 500 years ago in some primitive aboriginal culture in some isolated corner of the world? Is the timing and placing of our birth capricious? For Latter-day Saints, the answer is no. Fundamental to our faith is the understanding that before we came to this earth we lived in a premortal existence with a loving Heavenly Father. We further understand that in that premortal state we had agency and that we grew and developed as we used that agency. Some, as Abraham learned, became noble and great ones. We believe that when it came time for us to experience mortality, a loving Heavenly Father, who knows each of us well, sent us to earth at the time and in the place and in circumstances that would best help us reach our divine potential and help Him maximize His harvest of redeemed souls” (“To Confirm and Inform: A Blessing of Higher Education,” March 11, 2008, BYU Devotional).

Settling for Less than Full Dignity

In the DVD set, “Blacks in the Scriptures“, Marvin Perkins was asked if the Church should make a kind of “mea culpa”, an admission of guilt and an apology for past wrongdoings. He responded by saying that his mother has always taught him to eat his dinner before he could have his dessert, that he should be content with what is already available. With all due respect to my black brother in humanity who is equally created (not begotten) in the image of God, it seems Mr. Perkins is still saying, “Yes, master”, to the human institutional powers above him. Instead of appropriately demanding the full dignity that is due, and publicly heralding a call for an explicit repentance and apology and confession from Mormonism’s top leadership for the Mormon institution’s past wrongdoings, he has settled in some significant ways for a continued second-class treatment. That simply bewilders me. I write this to let people like him know that we haven’t forgotten the apology that is due to him. We take note that the Mormon Church decided to publicly schedule a general authority, not an apostle or prophet, to speak at the Sunday, June 8th commemorative event held at the Tabernacle. We take note that, as of this writing, the Mormon institution has no black general authorities. We take note that, as of this writing, the Mormon Church largely (but not absolutely) squelches what could be entirely appropriate black cultural expressions of spirituality in aspects of the Sunday-morning church experience, choosing instead to significantly force culturally homogenous liturgy and hymnody and homiletics.

June 8 is a Day of Shame

As an evangelical, I cannot celebrate the half-baked, unfinished reversal of policy and doctrine that happened in 1978. It serves as a reminder of institutional arrogance, of unrepentance, and of a false gospel that puts undue power in man-controlled ordinances. Saving faith instead looks alone to the person of Jesus Christ, who offers the assurance of the full and complete benefits of the gospel to anyone who would receive them by faith as a gift.

As long as you arrogantly refuse to issue an apology and an explicit renunciation, shame, shame, shame on you, Mormon leaders. Let June 8th be a day of shame.

See Also



TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: belongsinreligion; blacks; inman; lds; mormonism; racism; sectarianturmoil
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To: JennysCool
They attack Christianity and distort and defame Christ and his mission. If the delicate sensibilities of 21st century politically correct Christians cannot stomach defending the faith and the very essence of Christ from outside attack as we are called to do in the Bible itself so be it, but don't criticize those who still hold firm in the faith as it has been before the arrogance of American Christianity took hold in many quarters, it is your savior they are defending.
81 posted on 06/09/2013 6:06:03 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Campion
Franciscans don't necessarily think that Benedictines "got it wrong," only that they "got it differently"

(And some Protestant denoms don't necessarily think that other Protestant denoms "got it wrong," only that they "got it differently.")

I believe it was St Augustine who said, "Unity in essentials, diversity in non-essentials, charity in all things."

Certainly MANY Protestants would say the same thing about other Protestant denominations.

Obligatory Mormon reference: Brigham Young said that the penalty for interracial marriage was "Death on the spot" *and* said that this doctrine could never change. Today interracial Mormon couples can have their marriages "sealed" in the Temple.

(Which, of course, makes Brigham Young a false prophet...but we only hear crickets from the Mormon faithful about the obvious conclusion here)

82 posted on 06/09/2013 6:06:46 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: JennysCool

Some of us can multitask...

And perhaps, just perhaps, the reason we have WAYYY more “important” things to worry about is the fact that many have gone so lukewarm and weak in the faith..


83 posted on 06/09/2013 6:10:49 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian

The KKK had many members who happily donned a hood on Saturday night and then attended church service on Sunday. How many of the night riders do you think were Mormon or Catholic?

As Dr. King asserted, it is better to measure a man by the content of his character than by the color of his skin.

God bless.

Sursum Corda


84 posted on 06/09/2013 6:10:52 AM PDT by Sursum Corda (Sursum Corda)
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To: Colofornian
It wasn't aimed at you, it was a supposition of why some people might have the negative feelings about Mormons. The fixation is puzzling, and seems unhealthy to some of us.

Brings to mind that old saying about poison being more corrosive to the container that carries it.

85 posted on 06/09/2013 6:23:07 AM PDT by rlmorel (Silence: The New Hate Speech)
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To: Sursum Corda

You are accusing someone of attacking something you admittedly know nothing about as though it is not allowed, I simple said this is the Religion Forum and it is a religious discussion.
If you find it offensive maybe you should not read the thread.
You are free to any opinion you want, you whoever seemed to be unclear as to the forum.


86 posted on 06/09/2013 6:41:45 AM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: rlmorel; All
It wasn't aimed at you, it was a supposition of why some people might have the negative feelings about Mormons. Brings to mind that old saying about poison being more corrosive to the container that carries it.

Ya know, the Bible has this same seeming "fixation" vs. falsehood...but if you want to call that "poison, too" -- be my guest.

(Seemingly in today's highly relativistic culture, labeling anything as "false" is simply highly charged and gets a reaction where some feelers over-focus on sentimentalism as a worldview...and somehow (reductionistically, I might add) think many/most expressions constitutes a mere "overflow" of emotions)

87 posted on 06/09/2013 7:10:46 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Before those claiming to be Christians become overly critical of Mormons for their past teachings about race, they should probably examine the history of their own church.

In 1978 Mormons abandoned their teachings about black inferiority. Lots of other church groups had similar or even more harsh teachings, and gave them up not too long before that.

The Southern Baptists are called that because they split off because they objected to criticism of slavery from northern Baptists. A lot of southern (and other ) Protestant groups taught innate black inferiority at least up into the 60s, often basing this on ludicrous misinterpretations of Scripture involving the Curse of Cain or the curse of Canaan, etc. From about the 1880s to the 1920s or so this was a consensus in America.

The Catholic Church in America was strongly opposed to abolition of slavery.

I believe Jesus had something to say about motes and beams.


88 posted on 06/09/2013 9:00:09 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
In 1978 Mormons abandoned their teachings about black inferiority.

Like how the South in the late 19th century "abandoned" their teachings about black slavehood & inferiority.

How long, Sherm, did that really take to shake out? How many generations? Something rooted so deep took over a century, Sherm. So why can't you acknowledge that it's likely to be 2100 or close to it before a real INWARD "abandonment" takes shape?

89 posted on 06/09/2013 9:03:28 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Sherman Logan
In 1978 Mormons abandoned their teachings about black inferiority....The Southern Baptists are called that because they split off because they objected to criticism of slavery from northern Baptists. A lot of southern (and other ) Protestant groups taught innate black inferiority at least up into the 60s, often basing this on ludicrous misinterpretations of Scripture involving the Curse of Cain or the curse of Canaan, etc. From about the 1880s to the 1920s or so this was a consensus in America. The Catholic Church in America was strongly opposed to abolition of slavery.I believe Jesus had something to say about motes and beams.

Such a strange statement, chronologically speaking. A group that only left these teachings at their altar in 1978 is indirectly defended here...And yet the Southern Baptists and Catholics that indeed shed the beams of racism it held (Catholics by the 1860s, when the abolition movement abolished slavery) -- and the mixed-bag Protestants, tho later, yet 'tween the 1860s and well before 1978, are castigated.

[Note: My reference to "indirectly defended" here includes any lack of real critique of Mormon racism by you.]

So, you don't think the Catholics & Protestants ALREADY removed those real beams you reference?

What hoops do they STILL need to jump thru to make ANY decisive clear statements on racism? (Or are they FOREVER banned in your eyes from condemning racism?)

90 posted on 06/09/2013 9:10:56 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Sherman Logan
In 1978 Mormons abandoned their teachings about black inferiority.

These Book of Mormon verses below have NOT been abandoned, Sherman -- other than 2 Nephi 30:6 in the Book of Mormon:

Here's five Book of Mormon verses below talking about how the "skin of blackness" is a "cursing" based upon their "iniquity" (2 Nephi 5:21; Alma 3:6; Jacob 3:5) and how when the curse would be removed, they would again become "white" (3 Nephi 2:15), which the Book of Mormon says is a "delightsome" color (2 Nephi 5:21; cf. older version of 2 Nephi 30:6):

The Mormon "prophets" Nephi, Alma and the Mormon Jacob are racists!

* "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." (2 Nephi 5:21)

* "...many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people." (2 Nephi 30:6, pre-1981 versions...changed from unknown reasons in 1981 to "fair and delightsome"...It's not like the Mormon church has the supposed gold plates to go back and look to interpret a word differently)

* "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against the their brethren..." (Alma 3:6)

* "Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins..." (Jacob 3:5) [Note: The "Lamanites" per Mormonism are Native Americans...so their skin color, says Mormon "scripture" is based upon a supposed curse]

91 posted on 06/09/2013 9:13:38 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Uhh, I think you are off most of a century about when “the South ... “abandoned” their teachings about black ... inferiority.” They didn’t even begin to turn around on this till the 60s, and I suspect in many people’s hearts it wasn’t much before 1978, if then.

And the South never did “abandon” its teachings about slavery. The end of slavery was imposed on them by military force, and they spent pretty much the next century doing their best to maintain blacks in a condition as close to slavery as they were allowed to. Unless I’m gravely mistaken, there was a remarkable dearth of white southern churches who criticized these unChristian and unAmerican activities.

And, unfortunately, I think you will find that equal treatment of blacks was not a top issue for most American conservatives before the 70s, either.

IMO this was the greatest single failure of American conservatism, since insistence on equal rights can indeed be derived from impeccably conservative roots. The “civil rights era” was one in which most American conservatives were indifferent or opposed, whereas American liberals and leftists led the fight.

This was the greatest (and just about the only) issue in American history in which liberals/leftists/progressives were morally right and most conservatives were opposed or indifferent. This has given liberalism enormous moral capital which they still exploit successfully today. Which is why everything has to be turned into “the civil rights issue of our time.” It’s the only card they have.


92 posted on 06/09/2013 9:15:52 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
Before those claiming to be Christians become overly critical of Mormons for their past teachings about race, they should probably examine the history of their own church.

#1...As I showed in my last post, those aren't just past teachings...they are STILL referenced as "Scripture" revealed by the Mormon god, who holds to these vantage points.

#2...Point me to a racist Catholic pope who has made similar statements to what the Lds leaders taught.

#3...The Protestants don't have a head "prophet" or a Pope...and you therefore can't treat some sermon uttered somewhere by a 19th-century Protestant pastor as representative of Protestantism across the board...or as portending to represent God Himself as spoken by His Word.

Mormon statements DO claim to be God's DIRECT Word. And DO claim to be God's DIRECT very vocal chord statement on the issue.

Condemning a Protestant leader for some opinion is quite distinct from condemning a false prophecy that portends to come DIRECTLY from God's mouth.

93 posted on 06/09/2013 9:18:08 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Sherman Logan
Uhh, I think you are off most of a century about when “the South ... “abandoned” their teachings about black ... inferiority.” They didn’t even begin to turn around on this till the 60s, and I suspect in many people’s hearts it wasn’t much before 1978, if then.

Sherman, that's what I said...that it took the South over a century to abandon such teachings! (Sheesh!) Here's what I said in post #89: "Like how the South in the late 19th century "abandoned" their teachings about black slavehood & inferiority. How long, Sherm, did that REALLY TAKE take to shake out? How many generations? Something rooted so deep took over a century, Sherm."

Give me a break. Please read my words & don't distort them!

Could you not see that "abandoned" is in quotations? Did I then not follow up with how long that REALLY took to shake out? That it took multiple generations?

94 posted on 06/09/2013 9:21:38 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
A group that only left these teachings at their altar in 1978 is indirectly defended here...And yet the Southern Baptists ... that indeed shed the beams of racism it held

Are you seriously contending that Southern Baptists abandoned racism "long before" 1978?

Do you remember the history of the 60s and 70s at all? Most white southerners, many of them Baptists, had to be dragged forcibly into recognition of equal rights during this period.

The Southern Baptists didn't formally apologize for their history of racism and support of slavery until 1995. FWIW.

I am not a fan of Mormonism. Just opposed to claims that they were uniquely guilty of racism, a sin of which just about all American churches have been guilty, with abandonment of this unbiblical doctrine at various times by different churches, some of them not long at all before the Mormons capitulated on the issue.

95 posted on 06/09/2013 9:21:44 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
And the South never did “abandon” its teachings about slavery.

Well, if the South "never did 'abandon'" its beliefs "about slavery," that would mean you think the South STILL believes it now!!! Utter ludicrous comment!

96 posted on 06/09/2013 9:23:04 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Sherman Logan
Are you seriously contending that Southern Baptists abandoned racism "long before" 1978?

#1...are you seriously claiming that ALL Southern Baptists as of the 1950s and 1960s resided in the South? Really? Do I need to give you a demographic decade by decade of where Southern Baptists, %-wise, resided state-by-state? Do you realize how many Southern Baptist churches exist outside of the South? (Even outside of the U.S.?) What isolated hole do you live in to make such a contention?

#2...are you seriously claiming that ALL Southern Baptists living in the South towed the KKK line of the 50s & 60s? Really? What "proof" do you have of a given %?

97 posted on 06/09/2013 9:26:34 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

I am not intentionally distorting your words. If I misunderstood them, I apologize.

Here’s what I was responding to, “Like how the South in the late 19th century “abandoned” their teachings about black slavehood & inferiority.”

I took you to mean by this that the South officially abandoned these teaching in the late 19th century, but it still took most of a century for them to give them up in their hearts.

My point is that southern “Christians” (or most of them) did NOT abandon their teachings about black inferiority in “late 19th century.” They did so in the 60s and 70s, for the most part, or roughly about the same time Mormons did.


98 posted on 06/09/2013 9:26:57 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
This was the greatest (and just about the only) issue in American history in which liberals/leftists/progressives were morally right and most conservatives were opposed or indifferent

More incomplete historical ignorance.

Even this PBS show -- a station that caters to liberals/leftists/progressives -- had the historical prowess to realize the great impact that CHRISTIAN conservatives had within the abolitionist movement of the 19th century in the 1830s thru 1860s:

See: The Abolitionists to update your lopsided, incomplete historical vantage point on this.

99 posted on 06/09/2013 9:30:03 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

You might try reading a paragraph instead of a sentence.

The South did not voluntarily abandon slavery because they had stopped believing in it. It was imposed on them by force of arms.

By a short time after the war, most southerners were willing to agree that slavery had been wrong, but they didn’t give it up because they were convinced of this, but rather became convinced after they had been forced to give it up.

The South was forced to abandon slavery much the way Mormonism was forced to abandon polygamy. Irresistible political and military force.


100 posted on 06/09/2013 9:30:27 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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