Posted on 06/08/2013 9:00:01 PM PDT by Colofornian
(And some Protestant denoms don't necessarily think that other Protestant denoms "got it wrong," only that they "got it differently.")
I believe it was St Augustine who said, "Unity in essentials, diversity in non-essentials, charity in all things."
Certainly MANY Protestants would say the same thing about other Protestant denominations.
Obligatory Mormon reference: Brigham Young said that the penalty for interracial marriage was "Death on the spot" *and* said that this doctrine could never change. Today interracial Mormon couples can have their marriages "sealed" in the Temple.
(Which, of course, makes Brigham Young a false prophet...but we only hear crickets from the Mormon faithful about the obvious conclusion here)
Some of us can multitask...
And perhaps, just perhaps, the reason we have WAYYY more “important” things to worry about is the fact that many have gone so lukewarm and weak in the faith..
The KKK had many members who happily donned a hood on Saturday night and then attended church service on Sunday. How many of the night riders do you think were Mormon or Catholic?
As Dr. King asserted, it is better to measure a man by the content of his character than by the color of his skin.
God bless.
Sursum Corda
Brings to mind that old saying about poison being more corrosive to the container that carries it.
You are accusing someone of attacking something you admittedly know nothing about as though it is not allowed, I simple said this is the Religion Forum and it is a religious discussion.
If you find it offensive maybe you should not read the thread.
You are free to any opinion you want, you whoever seemed to be unclear as to the forum.
Ya know, the Bible has this same seeming "fixation" vs. falsehood...but if you want to call that "poison, too" -- be my guest.
(Seemingly in today's highly relativistic culture, labeling anything as "false" is simply highly charged and gets a reaction where some feelers over-focus on sentimentalism as a worldview...and somehow (reductionistically, I might add) think many/most expressions constitutes a mere "overflow" of emotions)
Before those claiming to be Christians become overly critical of Mormons for their past teachings about race, they should probably examine the history of their own church.
In 1978 Mormons abandoned their teachings about black inferiority. Lots of other church groups had similar or even more harsh teachings, and gave them up not too long before that.
The Southern Baptists are called that because they split off because they objected to criticism of slavery from northern Baptists. A lot of southern (and other ) Protestant groups taught innate black inferiority at least up into the 60s, often basing this on ludicrous misinterpretations of Scripture involving the Curse of Cain or the curse of Canaan, etc. From about the 1880s to the 1920s or so this was a consensus in America.
The Catholic Church in America was strongly opposed to abolition of slavery.
I believe Jesus had something to say about motes and beams.
Like how the South in the late 19th century "abandoned" their teachings about black slavehood & inferiority.
How long, Sherm, did that really take to shake out? How many generations? Something rooted so deep took over a century, Sherm. So why can't you acknowledge that it's likely to be 2100 or close to it before a real INWARD "abandonment" takes shape?
Such a strange statement, chronologically speaking. A group that only left these teachings at their altar in 1978 is indirectly defended here...And yet the Southern Baptists and Catholics that indeed shed the beams of racism it held (Catholics by the 1860s, when the abolition movement abolished slavery) -- and the mixed-bag Protestants, tho later, yet 'tween the 1860s and well before 1978, are castigated.
[Note: My reference to "indirectly defended" here includes any lack of real critique of Mormon racism by you.]
So, you don't think the Catholics & Protestants ALREADY removed those real beams you reference?
What hoops do they STILL need to jump thru to make ANY decisive clear statements on racism? (Or are they FOREVER banned in your eyes from condemning racism?)
These Book of Mormon verses below have NOT been abandoned, Sherman -- other than 2 Nephi 30:6 in the Book of Mormon:
Here's five Book of Mormon verses below talking about how the "skin of blackness" is a "cursing" based upon their "iniquity" (2 Nephi 5:21; Alma 3:6; Jacob 3:5) and how when the curse would be removed, they would again become "white" (3 Nephi 2:15), which the Book of Mormon says is a "delightsome" color (2 Nephi 5:21; cf. older version of 2 Nephi 30:6):
The Mormon "prophets" Nephi, Alma and the Mormon Jacob are racists!
* "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." (2 Nephi 5:21)
* "...many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people." (2 Nephi 30:6, pre-1981 versions...changed from unknown reasons in 1981 to "fair and delightsome"...It's not like the Mormon church has the supposed gold plates to go back and look to interpret a word differently)
* "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against the their brethren..." (Alma 3:6)
* "Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins..." (Jacob 3:5) [Note: The "Lamanites" per Mormonism are Native Americans...so their skin color, says Mormon "scripture" is based upon a supposed curse]
Uhh, I think you are off most of a century about when “the South ... “abandoned” their teachings about black ... inferiority.” They didn’t even begin to turn around on this till the 60s, and I suspect in many people’s hearts it wasn’t much before 1978, if then.
And the South never did “abandon” its teachings about slavery. The end of slavery was imposed on them by military force, and they spent pretty much the next century doing their best to maintain blacks in a condition as close to slavery as they were allowed to. Unless I’m gravely mistaken, there was a remarkable dearth of white southern churches who criticized these unChristian and unAmerican activities.
And, unfortunately, I think you will find that equal treatment of blacks was not a top issue for most American conservatives before the 70s, either.
IMO this was the greatest single failure of American conservatism, since insistence on equal rights can indeed be derived from impeccably conservative roots. The “civil rights era” was one in which most American conservatives were indifferent or opposed, whereas American liberals and leftists led the fight.
This was the greatest (and just about the only) issue in American history in which liberals/leftists/progressives were morally right and most conservatives were opposed or indifferent. This has given liberalism enormous moral capital which they still exploit successfully today. Which is why everything has to be turned into “the civil rights issue of our time.” It’s the only card they have.
#1...As I showed in my last post, those aren't just past teachings...they are STILL referenced as "Scripture" revealed by the Mormon god, who holds to these vantage points.
#2...Point me to a racist Catholic pope who has made similar statements to what the Lds leaders taught.
#3...The Protestants don't have a head "prophet" or a Pope...and you therefore can't treat some sermon uttered somewhere by a 19th-century Protestant pastor as representative of Protestantism across the board...or as portending to represent God Himself as spoken by His Word.
Mormon statements DO claim to be God's DIRECT Word. And DO claim to be God's DIRECT very vocal chord statement on the issue.
Condemning a Protestant leader for some opinion is quite distinct from condemning a false prophecy that portends to come DIRECTLY from God's mouth.
Sherman, that's what I said...that it took the South over a century to abandon such teachings! (Sheesh!) Here's what I said in post #89: "Like how the South in the late 19th century "abandoned" their teachings about black slavehood & inferiority. How long, Sherm, did that REALLY TAKE take to shake out? How many generations? Something rooted so deep took over a century, Sherm."
Give me a break. Please read my words & don't distort them!
Could you not see that "abandoned" is in quotations? Did I then not follow up with how long that REALLY took to shake out? That it took multiple generations?
Are you seriously contending that Southern Baptists abandoned racism "long before" 1978?
Do you remember the history of the 60s and 70s at all? Most white southerners, many of them Baptists, had to be dragged forcibly into recognition of equal rights during this period.
The Southern Baptists didn't formally apologize for their history of racism and support of slavery until 1995. FWIW.
I am not a fan of Mormonism. Just opposed to claims that they were uniquely guilty of racism, a sin of which just about all American churches have been guilty, with abandonment of this unbiblical doctrine at various times by different churches, some of them not long at all before the Mormons capitulated on the issue.
Well, if the South "never did 'abandon'" its beliefs "about slavery," that would mean you think the South STILL believes it now!!! Utter ludicrous comment!
#1...are you seriously claiming that ALL Southern Baptists as of the 1950s and 1960s resided in the South? Really? Do I need to give you a demographic decade by decade of where Southern Baptists, %-wise, resided state-by-state? Do you realize how many Southern Baptist churches exist outside of the South? (Even outside of the U.S.?) What isolated hole do you live in to make such a contention?
#2...are you seriously claiming that ALL Southern Baptists living in the South towed the KKK line of the 50s & 60s? Really? What "proof" do you have of a given %?
I am not intentionally distorting your words. If I misunderstood them, I apologize.
Here’s what I was responding to, “Like how the South in the late 19th century “abandoned” their teachings about black slavehood & inferiority.”
I took you to mean by this that the South officially abandoned these teaching in the late 19th century, but it still took most of a century for them to give them up in their hearts.
My point is that southern “Christians” (or most of them) did NOT abandon their teachings about black inferiority in “late 19th century.” They did so in the 60s and 70s, for the most part, or roughly about the same time Mormons did.
More incomplete historical ignorance.
Even this PBS show -- a station that caters to liberals/leftists/progressives -- had the historical prowess to realize the great impact that CHRISTIAN conservatives had within the abolitionist movement of the 19th century in the 1830s thru 1860s:
See: The Abolitionists to update your lopsided, incomplete historical vantage point on this.
You might try reading a paragraph instead of a sentence.
The South did not voluntarily abandon slavery because they had stopped believing in it. It was imposed on them by force of arms.
By a short time after the war, most southerners were willing to agree that slavery had been wrong, but they didn’t give it up because they were convinced of this, but rather became convinced after they had been forced to give it up.
The South was forced to abandon slavery much the way Mormonism was forced to abandon polygamy. Irresistible political and military force.
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