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To: fabian; Elsie
Fabian, Elsie did nothing but quote Scripture. It was your interpretation that led you to see what Jesus said as a claim that you were exalting yourself. Perhaps you have just experienced this:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Elsie, I think the difference between the sinner and the self-righteous, as Jesus illustrated, is based on God’s grace opening one’s eyes to the true depth of our sin, how totally interwoven it is with both our minds and our hearts:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The less mature individual, one who has never been bitterly disappointed to find deep sin in their own heart, can imagine their own perfection. Sure, those who live among Christians will dress it up with some token words of humility, grace, atonement, etc. But they’ve never been shaken to the core by the sight of their own sin. They still have self-confidence it is doable, with a little help from God, or some higher power, or whatever.

Notice, for example, the confident man in Jesus’ parable. Did he take credit for his righteousness? Not at all. He thanked God he was so good. Isn’t that nice of him? Then he proceeded to list all those superficial things that in his mind made him so good. He was his own judge, so how could he possibly come out wrong. He rubber stamped everything he did, so naturally he was perfect. He had no need of Jesus:

Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. [32] I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Now Jesus encountered one of these self-approved people in real life, and what did Jesus find out about this guy? That he had never taken that deep difficult look into his own soul:

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? [19] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. [20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. [21] And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. [22] Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

See how he called Jesus good, and Jesus challenged him on it. That by itself should halt the mouth of anyone promoting their own goodness. Jesus clearly says only God is good. Even our noblest attempts at perfection fall short of the glory of righteousness that belongs alone to God:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So we, like the rich young ruler, look at our life, look at our own heart, and see bright white robes of goodness. God sees filthy rags. Who is right? As Paul says, Let God be true, but every man a liar (Rom 3:4)

And what does God, in the person of Jesus, tell us about the rich young ruler? That only because his understanding of goodness was so defective was he able to think he could earn it by performance art, as it were. What did you do? I did this, that and the other, and I did it since I was very young. Well and good, go sell everything, give away your wealth, and follow Jesus.

And the young man blinked. By walking away, he says, in effect, “Oops, no can do, Jesus. I’ve got my wealth and I’m keeping it. That stuff means more to me than you do.” You have to give the fellow credit, though, for being honest. Ananias and Saphira were also attached to their wealth, but they tried to lie to the Holy Spirit of God Himself, and it didn’t go well.

Which gets to one of the most basic problems in achieving the sinless state, self-honesty. Consider the story of Jesus rescuing the adulteress from being stoned to death. What did he say was the criteria for stoning her?

Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Without sin. And what was the reaction? From the oldest to the youngest, as they were forced to look inward, each in turn, according to their maturity, realized their unworthiness to be the one to cast that first stone.

But without self-honesty, what do we have? How can we possibly see our own sin when we lie to ourselves in the first place? If, for example, we call people unkind names, in contradiction to the express teaching of Jesus, we can rationalize the sin away by claiming we had a right motive, even though Jesus grants us no such excuse.

Or we can charge that the belief in Jesus as God was a late invention not found in the early church, but when confronted with clear evidence from Polycarp and others we were wrong, we refuse to admit our error. Worse, we refuse to admit our own error while insisting that others admit their errors. That kind of double standard is hypocrisy, which Jesus accounts as a grievous sin, the chief sin of the Pharisees, far more damning than mere lust for too much sex or too much food or too much drink:

1Sam 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

One last thought. The Christian should not be discouraged that true holiness is so hard to achieve in this life. Even for the rich young ruler there was hope:

Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

But how then should the Christian think about his efforts to live a Godly life? Should he give up in despair? Should he frantically search out the latest self-hypnosis techniques to quiet that inner voice telling him he is falling short of the glory of God? Or should he emulate the Apostle Paul?

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. [12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Amen, Paul.

Peace,

SR

266 posted on 09/22/2012 5:19:50 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

She misapplied the scripture because she judges me and thinks it is rightness. You guys live and debate so much from the bible, yet it is not coming from your own understanding. Very rote and dry.
I have been through my fire with God and have sat still and prayed silently long enough over the years to become truly reborn...not reborn in my mind with a bunch of learned truth. But truly changed within and I am so happy and grateful!


267 posted on 09/22/2012 5:41:48 PM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo with laughter"you min)
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To: Springfield Reformer

I read your excellent comments AFTER I posted mine. Pretty cool how we both thought of the same passage of Scripture, though. ;o)


270 posted on 09/22/2012 6:31:45 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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