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To: hopespringseternal
It is a mutation or variation of an existing strain. Slapping a label on a run of the mill change does not make the case for large scale changes needed to develop a new cellular system or change from one species to a new one.

A mutation is, by definition, a change in DNA. DNA change is inevitable and continuous.

Evolution occurs through the process of accumulations of changes in DNA. Evolution is, therefore, inevitable and continuous.

The idea that evolution can only happen if a whole new biological system appears fully formed and functional is a literal creationist straw man. That particular straw man does, however, sound suspiciously like that Genesis story--you know, the one where, suddenly and simultaneously, every single plant and animal species sprang out of the mud, fully formed and functional.

I find it ironic that literal creationists try to discredit evolution by saying it acts just like creation (which pretty much convinces me that they don't literally believe the creation story, either).

Funny how the only thing you can quantify are speculative looks into the past. I am talking about actually seeing the same scale of changes that you speculate in man over the last 100,000 generations take place in bacteria over 20 years (100,000 generations). I only know about variations within a species that are probably just selection of genes already present by the use of antibiotics.

So fossils are imaginary? You feel that all science is just a matter of belief--that the radioisotope dating methods are just peculiar religious rituals, akin to saying the Lord's Prayer in church? I guess, in your mind, physics, geology, astronomy, and chemistry are *all* just alternate religions. Those are *all* components of the evolutionary process...

I see that your math skills are as strong as your science skills--100,000 bacterial generations takes:

> 100,000 generations x 20 minutes/generation = 2,000,000 minutes
> (2,000,000 minutes) / (60 minutes/hour) = 33,333.33 hours
> (33,333.33 hours) / (24 hours/day) = 1,389 days
> (1,389 days) / (365 days/year) = 3.8 years

Considering the lengths I go to to avoid the effects of evolution in my bacterial experiments--I try to do the whole experiment within about 60 generations, or about 18 hours--and even within that time, I can see enough mutation (aka evolution) to adversely effect my experiments--I would say that if I were to keep a bacterial culture growing for nearly 4 years, the bacteria at the end would be enough different that they could be considered a different species.

BTW, using antibiotics to select bacteria allows bacteria with certain mutations to survive, while killing off the unmutated bacteria. By definition, the bacteria remaining after the selection have evolved. In a relatively short time, by applying selective pressures, I can end up with bacteria that, by any *scientific* criteria, are not the same species as the starting bacteria.

249 posted on 06/06/2012 5:01:56 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom
A mutation is, by definition, a change in DNA. DNA change is inevitable and continuous.

Evolution occurs through the process of accumulations of changes in DNA. Evolution is, therefore, inevitable and continuous.

I could say the same thing about my checking account, but I am unlikely to ever find a million dollars in it. No one has ever demonstrated that those mutations are going anywhere. You are extrapolating and assuming the observations you see today explain the observations you cook out of the fossil record. But you haven't shown that to be the case.

The idea that evolution can only happen if a whole new biological system appears fully formed and functional is a literal creationist straw man.

That "straw man" only exists because you are assuming something happened that you can only explain in principle, not in detail. We are all fully aware that these things have to evolve one tiny step at a time, but since you are incapable of detailing those steps even in hypothesis, I lack the faith you have.

So fossils are imaginary? You feel that all science is just a matter of belief--that the radioisotope dating methods are just peculiar religious rituals, akin to saying the Lord's Prayer in church?

My kids enjoy visiting fossil exhibits very much. Among evolutionists, that is probably an accurate portrayal.

I see that your math skills are as strong as your science skills--100,000 bacterial generations takes:

Lenski has been studying E. coli for 20 years and supposedly has taken them through 50,000 generations. Lenski Long Term E. coli experiment.

Here is the point: From homo habilis to homo sapiens required massive changes in human DNA you can't even quantify (such as tripling brain volume). In a similar number of generations, Lenski has only estimated 10-20 beneficial mutations. And much of those "mutations" are specialized adaptation to the experimental environment that ultimately would prove harmful if the bacteria were re-introduced to a more natural environment. It is very likely his strains would die back and what would be left would not be remarkably different than "wild" strains.

250 posted on 06/06/2012 5:44:21 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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