Seeking camera advice (vanity)

The mush between my ears | 21 Jan 2012 | moi

[FourPeas]

I've done a bit of looking for a camera for my 12yo son, with little success. Hopefully some more knowledgeable FReepers can give me some good advice.

I want a camera that he can use to actually learn about photography, not just use to take pictures. I'd like a camera that has the capabilities to manually set shutter speed and aperture, not just one with a lot of snazzy automatic features. Actually, I'm afraid all those features will just get in the way. At the same time, I'm not looking to spend more than a couple hundred dollars.

I have no problems with a used camera from a reputable dealer, in fact that's where I've been doing most of my looking.

I waiver on whether to stick with a digital or revert back to a film camera. The immediate ability to review a photo on the digital is nice, but I've not come close to finding a good digital option.

Photography's been an on-and-off hobby for me for 35+ years. I have several old film cameras, and I may end up using one of them, but all would require me to very closely supervise him so wouldn't allow him to just have fun when he just wanted to take snapshots. My old digitals are too complex and maneuvering through the menus would be more confusing than the old-fashioned rotating dials.

Which brings me to the final complexity. This kid is my daredevil. Any camera will need to be pretty rugged to be really useful to him.

So, is there something out there that fits my needs? Maybe a better plan is a two camera strategy: one snapshot fun-only box, and one more educational manual box? Any ideas?

[Uri’el-2012]

Good tip on the light meter. Somewhere I have an old one that I used as a kid. It’s probably time to dig into a few old boxes and see if it still works. That might even be something to show him while I’m still in research mode.

A free download from iTunes to
an iPhone, iPad or Ipod touch => Light meter.

[FlyVet]

I've had a Canon A1000 for a few years, and it does okay, within its limitations. At highers speeds and zoom settings, the photos get grainy, but you can't expect too much from a camera in that price range. The nice thing about some of the Canons, they still have a good old-fashioned viewfinder. If the sun's at your back, you don't have to struggle with a washed-out LCD screen. I think that's something to consider.

I dropped mine on the pavement once. I thought that would be the end of it, but it survived with a few scratches.

[KarlInOhio]

I've been pretty happy with my Canon SX120IS. Its manual mode allows you to set both the aperture and speed like you want. I think they are up to the SX150IS now, but it looks like they mainly increased the zoom and pixel count a little.

[rabidralph]

B&H Photo Video is a great online site to buy equipment and software from. They are very reliable, below retail on most things, and I bought all of my gear from them. They also have a good selection of used equipment.

[Eldon Tyrell]

oh - one more thing - to learn - ABSOLUTELY digital -

You get immediate feedback. You can IMMEDIATELY - see the difference between depth of field at F2.0 and 4.0. You can see - should i unerexpose 1 stop? Set flash to underexpose 1 stop? 2 stops?

Can I hand hold at 1/15th?

With digital - I can set Iso to 3200, underexpose 2 stops, no flash, and have a dark picture of a kid reading a book, or blowing out birthday cake candles, or etc. Similarly - I can shut that flash down to -2 stops - and not blow everybodies faces out of the photos.

If I underexpose too far - I see the results in 1 second - twist a dial - and shoot at maybe -2/3rds of a stop.

If I get it all screwed up (of hand camera to wife) - I set camera on “green dot”.

---

Canon G series is not like other cameras.

I’m sure there are similar Nikons - but to me - they aren’t similar. For instance - they aren’t quite as good as G series, and they don’t have a real equivalent of 5D (excpet for $1000 more).

[raybbr]

I would second your Kodak Z-series. I have had three different ones and any one of them would fulfill "fourpeas" needs...

My nine year old will be learning on my Z712-IS. It's shaped like a DSLR, is smaller in size and has full manual modes. And, they are virtually indestructible. I had to leave on out in the rain to lose only half of its functions.

[FourPeas]

set the beebers to stune...

LOL

[FourPeas]

Looks like I need to put cracking my android to the top of my list.

[FourPeas]

That’s certainly a good recommendation for the Kodak Z-series. Virtually indestructible is high on the list if it’s going to be his to use for snapshots.

[Uri’el-2012]

Ken Rockwell on Nikon D7000, D300, D3 (D700) and Canon 5D Mark II High ISO Comparison

[FourPeas]

First question to answer is how responsible is this 12 year old daredevil kid? That can be a starting point for the type of camera you select.

Is he the one that wants to learn the manual aspects or is it you who want him to learn those aspects? Is this for a class or fun for him?

Good questions. He's responsible enough to make sure he doesn't lose the camera, but not enough to accurately judge how dangerous a situation is. He WILL misjudge situations and the camera will likely be dropped. It's part of the reason I've held off getting him a real camera even though he's wanted one for 5+ years.

He wants to learn to take photos, and given his personality he will soon want to know more about how and why photography works. We've looked at the science behind a pinhole camera, lenses, the human eye, and the shutter on a camera including how to stop motion and adjust for depth of field and the subject definitely interests him. Also, it's part of our homeschooling for this spring/summer with tie-ins to art and physics. I've found a class at a local camera store that will cover more depth than we've done so far.

Thanks for your input. Your questions have helped me flesh out more of what I'm looking for.

[Joe the Pimpernel]

I would buy a used Canon ($50-$100) on craiglist that has a version of CHDK available for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO_4xyW-T0Q

http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/using-the-canon-hack-development-kit

http://lifehacker.com/387380/turn-your-point+and+shoot-into-a-super+camera

http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK

CHDK opens up the professional-level capabilities that have been built into the chip, but deliberately crippled in the cheaper cameras.

CHDK will allow him to to time-lapse photography, RAW, and all sorts of advanced things.

[FourPeas]

Thank you for the good advice. I tend to agree on starting with film. With the advent of 1hr photo processing, the results don’t take as long as they used to. I like, too, that it gives a physical result. As you aid it encourage care as well as the practice of recording settings for later reference.

Thanks, too, for the art photo sites. That’s definitely something I’ve been wanting to do, just to show him the range of what photography is.

[celtic gal]

I am glad I offered some worthy questions to consider. Our grandson is rather good with a camera but he is clueless on taking good care of such a fine instrument.
Others gave good suggestions for starters. I got one a few years ago that is an Olympus and you can do a lot with it and it is safe if you drop in the water or from 5 ft..I got it so I could shoot in bad drippy weather as you know, these high end and most other cameras don’t like water( rain).

I think the suggestions for the smaller ones that permit learning manual adjustments yet are not designed to change lenses yet would be a good starting point...

I think there is room for film but digital is the norm now..so go digital. If you do have photoshop or I like lightroom even more with photoshop ( they do different things) and I have aperture on my MAC, he can learn to crop, adjust etc. But remember, even the most expensive camera on earth won’t take a good pic if the photographer doesn’t have “ the eye”..

Start small like others suggested and then advance as your son is showing more responsibility for care of the gear and actually his interest level which could change. Who knows, next year it could be electric guitars! LOL

[razorback-bert]

I would forget film, because if you don’t have a darkroom and equipment, he really won’t learn film.

I prefer Nikons and a closet full.

I would really recommend hunting used book stores for Kodak photography books.

[FourPeas]

Funny you should mention books, on another tab I’m searching for old copies of the book I used in HS. One of the perks of being old is that the books I’m familiar with cost a buck at abebooks or alibris.

[Uri’el-2012]

Books to buy (new paperback or used hardback)
Ansel Adams: Camera, Negative & Print at Amazon

When I started 60 years ago, I was told
to get a subscription to National Geographic
and learn the "eye of the photographer"
that is photo composition

I know many "professional photographers"
with $10,000 cameras who take "snapshots"

The darkroom has been replaced by computers.
Consider a Digital Asset Manager (Lightroom or Aperture)
All photo plugin suites ( OneOne, Topaz & Nik ) plug into the DAMs.
Photoshop is being replaced by DAMs with plugins.
This provides superior workflow management.

My preferences are :
Nikon cameras,
Canon Scanners and Printers
and Mac for computers.

Adorama Cameras is used by most professionals

[rabidralph]

You're welcome. Also, if any of these training seminars come to a town near you, I highly recommend them. Scott Kelby is the founder of National Association of Photoshop Professionals (NAPP) and he and others hold seminars on Photoshop and photography. They pack a lot of info into the day for $99 and you can join NAPP while you attend.

Down the road there is studio lighting

Regarding your daredevil son. You should stress to him that the equipment he is using costs a lot of money and it would be difficult to replace if it were damaged. He should treat all equipment and supplies as if he bought it with his own money and to think about how hard he'd have to work or how much of his allowance he'd have to save to replace it. My dad let me use his cameras and rifles as a child, but he trained me to use them and stressed the importance of handling all of it with care. Even our special ops people know they shouldn't break their equipment while on assignment :-)

[Eldon Tyrell]

What I see here is a full frame Nikon for $5000 doing better at high Iso than a full frame Canon for $2200.

The other Nikons are “DX”.

I’m not in it to play fan boy for Canon - just that in certain segments they have a better camera. Nikon is catching up NOW - with D700 - but a few years ago you could pick up a full frame 5D for $1,000 lightly used. 5D was released 5 years ago.

otherwise - to me - both are a toss up - lenses drive decision anyway.

Similarly - Canon 50mm 1.8 is like $90. Nikon equiv is like $160 I think.

For me - personally - I can’t afford to play “who has the best camera”. It is a value judgement. So the comp is “lightly used Canon 5D vs new Nikon D90”. Plus - I shoot wide angle and low light ... etc.

Similarly - G9 vs ? P5100?

[dangerdoc]

No need to break your Android phone, there are dozens of light meter apps and photo calculators in the market.