Posted on 05/07/2011 9:27:55 PM PDT by tlb
Maybe I was confused and full preterists believe in a 40 year gap?
Matchett-PI wrote: ““I” allow a 40 year gap????”
You responded: “Maybe I was confused and full preterists believe in a 40 year gap?”
A close reading of what I post would have revealed to you your mistake:
“An irony in this is that Ice quotes Wood as noting that Daniel would see the 70 weeks as represented in the 70 years of Exile a period which was NOT an exile of 69 years, followed by a “gap”, and a remaining year that was not served for years afterwards!
His own quoted analogy ____only reinforces the preterist position denying that a gap can be allowed____!”
From my post # 237: Daniel’s 70th week
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=232#232
Excerpt:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Many have written on the subject of how the coming of Jesus precisely fulfilled the timing of this passage on terms of the first 69 weeks, and we have no reason to dispute or discuss that here. What is at issue is the last or 70th week. The dispensational paradigm holds that this 70th week is on hold until a future time called the Tribulation. I disagree.
The 70th week, or last 7-year period, transpired around the crucifixion of Jesus (ending around the time of Paul’s conversion), giving the Jews time to accept him as Messiah (during which the punishment for this rejection was determined).
The war on the Jews from 66-73 AD (which some preterists argue is the 70th week, and may have allowed a 40 year gap, programmatic of the Exodus, for Jesus to still be accepted, between 30-70) need not be part of Daniel’s 70 and indeed likely is not (a point Ice, in his book noted below, fails to grasp).
Gerhard Hasel in a study for Andrews University Seminary Studies titled “The Hebrew Masculine Plural For ‘Weeks’...” notes that the grammar of the verse is done in a way that is “purposeful and by design so as to stress the unitary whole, the totality, and the completeness” of the 70 week block. The weeks “cannot be split apart in such a way as to separate the final ‘one week’ “ as dispensationalists require.
Recently in response to this view, futurist Thomas Ice in The End Times Controversy defended the dispensational view against specific preterist arguments; we will comment only where Ice addresses claims that we hold to, which turns out to not be much. The first point needful to address is how the list of six requirements relates to the first century:
“to finish the transgression” It can be agreed with Ice that this refers to a specific sin of the Jewish people.
Ice must see this in his view as the rejection of the Messiah and does not even ask what a preterist would suggest; we would say that it is the broader sin of rejecting YHWH as He really is and for what He really offered. Rejection of YHWH was the hallmark of Jewish history.
“to make an end of sins” Without any explanation, Ice says that this can only be after the installation of Messiah in the millenial reign; so he thus admits that even by his view, this is not something that Israel will realistically accomplish in that future period he sees. Thus it is just as well to say that it is a deadline given to Israel of the ancient world, to stop sinning or else.
“to make reconciliation for iniquity” Ice makes no specific dispensational application here; it is little more than a restatement of “clean up your act” in the phrase above.
However, Ice makes a critical error [315] in saying, “if [these three phrases] are descriptive of elements that have yet to be fulfilled, then the seventy weeks of Daniel have yet to be fulfilled” and week 70 is yet in the future.
This misses the salient point that these are but goals for Israel to meet, and there is nothing to say that they will succeed in meeting them prior to the Messiah’s arrival. In other words Ice begs the dispensational question yet again.
“to bring in everlasting righteousness” Ice once again merely states what he thinks this must be in his futurist view; for the preterist, this is as well to say that warning is given of the need to recognize and honor the Messiah when he comes in the first century AD.
“to seal up the vision and prophecy” Ice notes Gentry’s view that Christ did this on earth, and offers a response that this cannot be since there were later visions and prophecies in the New Testament.
What this fails to note (again!) is that the six phrases are contingent upon Israel “doing it right” and recognizing the Messiah.
As I note here, “Plan A” would have Jesus recognized as Messiah and enthroned as King of Israel and thus, there would be no need for any more prophecy. Because we have “Plan B” instead, the need for prophecy continued a bit longer.
“to anoint the most Holy” Gentry relates this to Jesus’ baptism; I would say it would relate to the anointing of Jesus as king that should have happened under “Plan A”.
Ice objects to Gentry in a way that relates to my own view, noting that “most holy” is “never used of a person, only of things” but then turns right around and quotes someone else who says that it refers to “Daniel’s people Israel”!
We are constrained to ask what about the words “most holy” keeps it from being applied to the person of Jesus. That it was used before only to apply to the Temple means nothing against such an identification.
In defense of the idea of a “gap” separating the 70th week, Ice’s bibliography is notably missing Hasel’s article (which defeats his weak plea that because it says the seventieth week come “after” the 62, a “gap” is implied).
He presents a defense for a gap that is so absurd as to be comical. He claims that “Israel had violated the sabbatical year 70 times” based on a deductive reading of 2 Chron. 36:20-1, which says that the land “enjoyed its sabbaths” while the Jews were gone 70 years!
It’s bad enough that he bases this logic on deduction alone, but he argues that since Judah was in the land about 800 years (1400 BC-c.600 BC), and they must have ignored the Sabbath during only 490 of those years to earn that punishment, there must have been “gaps” in their observation of the Sabbath!
Even if this numerological fantasy could be substantiated with actual data showing that the Israelites historically failed to observe exactly 490 years of Sabbaths, it ignores the point that this did not make for any sort of “gap” in the punishment (!) of 70 years in exile, which is the only number that is actually declared by God!
It is not as though we have a prophecy that says, “you will be disobedient about the Sabbath for a period of 490 years” (not, “a period that adds up to 490 years”!) is dated to 1400 BC and from which we can look forward and say, “ah, they failed to observe Sabbaths for 5 weeks in 1010 BC, then 3 weeks in 1009,” etc.!
An irony in this is that Ice quotes Wood as noting that Daniel would see the 70 weeks as represented in the 70 years of Exile a period which was NOT an exile of 69 years, followed by a “gap”, and a remaining year that was not served for years afterwards! His own quoted analogy only reinforces the preterist position denying that a gap can be allowed
It appears as if most Dispensationalists aren't able to be objective:
Backatcha! :)
Laymen AND seminary graduates are all to study the same bible, and, AS A COMMUNITY (called "the Church") as set up in the New Testament, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, arrive at the correct interpretations of biblical passages. Everyone, pastors, elders, seminarians, laymen etc., must be under some authority and accountability...as this guards us from going off alone on some tangent...following some deceiving spirit we THINK is holy, when it is not....
Isn't is fascinating that before the late date setting, Camping had disowned the Church(es) saying their time was now past? This already is disobedience to the bible, and the Holy Spirit who inspired it.
The trouble with Mr. Camping is that since he is not, and hasn't been, under proper Church authority (only under the authority of Family Radio's board...) he's become eccentric in his bible interpretations, convinced that he alone is right--and all other (strong, orthodox, evangelical) biblical expositors are wrong. To Camping, to disagree with Camping is to disagree with the bible, and God Himself...
I remember how offensive his dogmatism--and confusion of his eccentric interpretations with God's truth--was way back in the '70s and '80s.
More than once I recall someone would call in and say, "My mother died and was a Roman Catholic, did she go to Heaven?" Camping answered: "No, they don't accept Jesus as their personal Savior, so I'm sorry, she's in Hell! Next caller please...."
He's a very sad case. What is sadder are all the families that will be suffering in late May (assuming the Lord tarries...), due to the foolishness of Camping's followers.
Much agree.
I think the Board—many AoG folks IIRC
were derelict in letting him get away with so much nonsense even in the 1970’s.
However, I’m sure they were trying to be charitable and give him the benefit of the doubt—wayyyyy to much, imho.
Okay who was raptured yesterday and where are you now?
“More than once I recall someone would call in and say, “My mother died and was a Roman Catholic, did she go to Heaven?” Camping answered: “No, they don’t accept Jesus as their personal Savior, so I’m sorry, she’s in Hell! Next caller please....” ~ AnalogReigns
Camping is by no means the only one that believes that unless one is a “Dispensationalist” one doesn’t believe Jesus Christ is his/her personal Savior. He’s merely the tip of the iceberg:
Will Catholics will be “Left Behind”?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=210#210
Do most Dispensationalists still believe the Catholic Church is “Babylon” and “The Great Whore”?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2716739/posts?page=241#241
Laymen AND seminary graduates are all to study the same bible, and, AS A COMMUNITY (called "the Church") as set up in the New Testament, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, arrive at the correct interpretations of biblical passages. Everyone, pastors, elders, seminarians, laymen etc., must be under some authority and accountability...as this guards us from going off alone on some tangent...following some deceiving spirit we THINK is holy, when it is not....
One thing I enjoy about FreeRepublic religion forum is all the various Christians here that may be used a a tool of accoutablility. Of course this does not replace but merely supplements your local church and Pastor.
Did anyone get raptured yesterday? Someone ping all of the raptured ones.
I sure hope not. lol BTW I think the WMD's went to Syria also.
Good one!!
More likely, just a missing bead on his abacus.
LOL, The reason I asked the question about the Camping error being due to replacement theology, which I believed myself for about 35 years BTW, is because IMHO it clouds the Bible's holistic story about Our Lord Jesus Christ.
In my experience my understanding about end times, such as it is, came about when I decided to give up my former antisemitism and ask the Holy Spirit, Why all this stuff about Israel in the Bible?
My Faith journey has taken me from about 35 years of amill to 1 year of pre-trib to about 20 years of premill. This is hard to understand since I am only about 25 years old.
I won’t believe it until the raptured ping list is pinged and everyone posts.
The problem with Camping and his ilk is that over time they have to be more and more "out there" in order to stay relevant. From all I've read, Camping was fairly mainstream albeit with a strong Calvinist leading, which inevitably leads to a fatalistic view. He's gradually moved from any accountability and gotten himself further and further out on a limb, with no one to help him down out of the tree.
Here's my real point... after 63 years, I've learned that what God wants is a relationship (Romans 5:8!). I've left all of the pre-trib, post-trib, and a thousand other theological explanations and just live every day thankful that the Creator of the universe WANTS to have a personal relationship with me.
I think God approaching Adam and Eve after their sin speaks to what God truly wants from us ...dependence on Him.
I'll leave the preaching to the preachers; many, like Camping, who serve to make the simple complex and I'll just continue to be thankful that God makes it all so simple.
Also, you mentioned living a contented life with an attitude of gratitude. Very important!
I may be more interested than you are about end times but that is OK God does not use a cookie cutter when he makes us. Just know this, which I already know you do based on your testimony, that when things hit the fan, as I think they will IMHO know that Our Lord Jesus Christ can handle it.
3 more days? ping
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