Posted on 01/10/2011 8:03:13 PM PST by Ramius
This is a topic that I have considered posting for a long time. I'm hoping to generate some good quality discussion, becuase I think this really matters. I don't know the answers. I hope that with some vigorous discussion maybe some good actionable ideas will come out.
The exercise is this: You are out and about, let's say... at a shopping mall. It could be anywhere, of course. But for the purposes of this exercise we're at a shopping mall. You're looking at a nice pair of boots in the window of some store-- suddenly the unmistakable sound of gunshots ring out. Someone is actively shooting nearby. We will assume for this exercise that:
-- You are lawfully carrying your concealed weapon. -- You are the sort that is running toward the sound of the guns.
So here are the questions:
1.) How do we recognize each other? Presumably, in a busy mall, it's entirely likely that more than one person with a CCW will respond to the sound of the guns. You run to the sound, but how do you know if when you see a guy with a gun, he's the guy with the gun that matters? What do we do about that?
Finding another CCW carrier to team up with is a huge force multiplier... but how do we recognize each other in a split second? Some of the alternatives are disastrous.
2.) How do we identify and distinguish ourselves to the police? The police will show up, and in ginormous numbers. Sooner or later the place will be crawling with them. How do we ~not~ be "the guy with a gun" they are looking for?
Let's face it... when there's an active shooter situation going on, when the cops show up (or even when some other CCW carriers show up) it's REALLY important that everybody understands who the threats are and who they aren't.
So. How do we do that?
Rod Ignatius makes a makes a lot of sense.
Except his pricing structure ;)
Yeah, when you see him cap a 73 year old lady or a 9 year old girl, that is a clue.
There was this situation at the Tacoma, Washington mall back in 2005. Brandon McKown stopped the gunman from shooting any more people, although the gunman did retreat into a store and took hostages that were unharmed. From wiki:
“During the course of the shooting, Brandon (Dan) McKown, a legally armed citizen, intervened. McKown drew his 9mm CZ pistol and verbally commanded Maldonado to put down his gun. Maldonado’s response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown’s spine and leaving him paralyzed.
In addition to McKown, five other people were shot but not seriously injured, and a seventh person received a non-gunshot injury. At least one other person in the mall at the time also pulled a gun on Maldonado but did not fire for fear of hitting innocent bystanders.[1]
Maldonado then [after being confronted by McKown] took four people hostage in a Sam Goody store, including two employees, a customer, and a 12-year-old boy who he only briefly held captive before releasing. The attack began shortly after noon, and the hostage situation lasted until four p.m. when Maldonado surrendered to a Tacoma police SWAT team without further incident.[2]
You know, I’ve thought about that. I don’t know the answer. I do know that I do not want to be the next gun-wielding shooter on the ground after another CCW responder mistakes me for the initial shooter after I had just gun-downed the original shooter all ninja like.
Agreed.
My plan is to secure a nice corner or other defensible position and wait. I won’t present but will have my hand on the throttle, ready to draw and fire. If someone with a gun charges I hope to shoot COM and score but my main concern is to get mine behind me and take a defensive stance to protect the ones I care about. I ain’t shooting first unless confronted with a serious threat, one that is clearly a baddie, and then hope I can get Massad Ayoob as my legal expert.
I have lived a good long life, I hope I have the balls to protect and the wits to be aware of my surroundings if I am ever put in a situation like this.
Of course, all that conjecture goes out the window when somebody is shooting at you. Training and muscle memory are your best friends. Those, and all the samurai movies I have watched ;)
Who knows what we would do under the circumstances.
McKown placed himself needlessly in danger.
It is sad that things worked out badly for him.
If I'm in a public place and I hear gunfire, I'm moving my loved ones and myself to the safest place possible. Sorry, our laws don't permit me shooting a perp to save a stranger's life.
And this Patchwork of gun laws and reciprocity can be very confusing.
More confusing than the scenario in the OP.
I concur with your suggestions.
Very good advice! Remember, your rounds are just as lethal as a lunatic's! Regardless of what is going on, YOU NEED TO KNOW YOU HAVE A CLEAR SHOT!
Otherwise, you are, essentially, an accomplice!
Remember the shooters in India? Remember the school assaulted by mooselimbs? At those scenes more than one was running around pinging folks. The perps carried auto-weapons with extra mags. They continued murdering people for a long time before the forces to stop them finally got control of the situation.
America probably has several thousand armed mooselimb fanatics just waiting for word to start slaughtering people at shopping malls and easy venues for slaughtering unarmed people, to bring the economy to a grinding halt. In such a shooting situation, only shooting at a perp close by so you can take them out and get their weapons in to the hands of other potential victims who should be told to take defensive positions is the scenario I keep running through my writer's mind.
If folks are unarmed, they're out gunned. If some folks have CCW revolvers where perps are using AKs, well, the situation changes to one of battle zone where you're out gunned and in need of 'equalizers'. America is about to find out what these murderous mooselimbs want for all of us. I think the shooting in AZ and even the Texas Army base were not the sort of shooting we're about to experience.
My only precaution to fellow CCW holders is carry extra mags and on't expect you're carrying to stop a mugging, because battle zones I fear are in our future in the heartland. And teach your family members what weapons look like, how they operate, and how to reload the various types. Oh, and if you find you're in a battle zone, let those who have been in such situations before direct the action if they enlist your assistance. We have a lareg number of vets in the heartland.
If I were to intervene, I would not yell any commands - it’s best if he didn’t know what hit him, or from where.
Agree... it’s not so hard for us to detect in the initial seconds who the good guys and bad guys are.
But when the cops show up, how are they supposed to know which guy with a gun is the wrong guy? It’s a fair question, I think.
You're going to have to deal with a fluid situation as it develops. If confronted by officers, use extreme caution prior to making any movement. Communicate and exaggerate compliance.
At least that's what they told me in CCW class held at the local Holiday Inn Express ... ;)
As far as telling the good guys from the bad guy. The good guys won't be shooting at everybody, and they will be dressed like you. Don't laugh, but most CCW carriers look like they fell out of the "I've got a gun" catalog. The bad guys will probably have a bag with to carry a massive amount of ammo, shooting all over the place and might be dressed like they are an extra on "24." Columbine shooters wore trench coats, the VT shooter had a bag of ammo. I think this guy walked up with a hoodie on in nice weather.
Carry whenever you can. If you find it hard to dress around your gun, get a smaller gun. A hand cannon you leave at home isn't as useful as a pea shooter you always have on you.
Me too. Mine was in front of the Clinton White House.
pfl
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