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Right.

Let me quote from Andy Alcorn in HEAVEN pp 125 & 126

I think I'll scan the two pages--lots worth reading there.

Here they are:

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I think he and his sources say it much better than I can so I'll let it go at that, for now! LOL

I don't disagree with a word of that (unless I missed a word somewhere).

I don't doubt for a minute that all of God's creation is groaning for mankind's redemption.

My point is that such groaning doesn't mean that the entire universe fell when man fell...but that since God's Love and Spirit is infused into the universe He created, the universe (including the angelic hosts) groans with Him at man's fallen nature just as it did rejoice with Him at the Cross and will rejoice with Him at our resurrection.

If I am incorrect, I hope someone will set me straight!

OK, but that isn't actually what we were talking about. And um... there does seem to be some context missing, that's why I went all the way back to verse 12 to get a sense of what St. Paul was saying.

I stand by my "interpretation". 19-23 NEEDS at least back to verse 17 to get a sense of what's being said. We are children of God, joint-heirs with Christ, if we share in His suffering we will also share in his Glory and the sufferings of this world are nothing compared to the glory to come because right now, everything pretty much stinks for everyone and everything but it's not really all that bad for us because we have hope... by which we are saved. Which is hilarious but totally beside the point, we're talking about aliens about whom we have absolutely no clue.

You're saying these hypothetical aliens must be fallen because of the fall of Adam and I'm saying that doesn't follow because if they aren't descendants of Adam then they can't really share in his fall. And "all creation" includes the angels who didn't fall so obviously there's some nuance here.

Amen, Quix. Wonderful excerpts from a book I'll read online. Thanks for the tip. Anyone who quotes Hoekema and Calvin on the same page in worth looking into. 8~)

The bottom page ends with Calvin's comment on Romans 8:19...

Romans 8:19 - "For the intent expectation of the creation, etc."
He teaches us that there is an example of the patience, to which he had exhorted us, even in mute creatures. For, to omit various interpretations, I understand the passage to have this meaning — that there is no element and no part of the world which, being touched, as it were, with a sense of its present misery, does not intensely hope for a resurrection. He indeed lays down two things, — that all are creatures in distress, — and yet that they are sustained by hope. And it hence also appears how immense is the value of eternal glory, that it can excite and draw all things to desire it.
Further, the expression, expectation expects, or waits for, though somewhat unusual, yet has a most suitable meaning; for he meant to intimate, that all creatures, seized with great anxiety and held in suspense with great desire, look for that day which shall openly exhibit the glory of the children of God. The revelation of God’s children shall be, when we shall be like God, according to what John says,
“For though we know that we are now his sons, yet it appears not yet what we shall be.” (1 John 3:2.)
But I have retained the words of Paul; for bolder than what is meet is the version of Erasmus, “Until the sons of God shall be manifest;” nor does it sufficiently express the meaning of the Apostle; for he means not, that the sons of God shall be manifested in the last day, but that it shall be then made known how desirable and blessed their condition will be, when they shall put off corruption and put on celestial glory. But he ascribes hope to creatures void of reason for this end, — that the faithful may open their eyes to behold the invisible life, though as yet it lies hid under a mean garb.