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You refer continually to “government” as if it were some entity that is ABOVE and MORE POWERFUL than the people! That is the exact opposite of what the founders built - government is BELOW and SUBSERVIANT to the people.

It is from the CONSENT of the governed that the government derives it’s power and failing that consent - the government ceases to exist as a legitimate entity (and then often resorts to various forms of force to remain in power).

Theoretically, each and every citizen is a sovereign entity. Each of us could declare our independence from the Nation and our state. Of course, if I were to do so, the state and the nation would have no requirement to deal with me and could even forbid the passage of myself or my goods through thier territory and forbid that others trade with me - so my independence would likely be rather short lived.

If we ALL declared individual independance - this would indeed be anarchy and the founders nightmare - something they argued AGAINST in the federalist papers as the union of the parts is better able to protect the rights of the whole!

Oh - and another example of being prevented from “leaving” - try leaving the US with your mobile property to see how much the US lets you take with you ....

As to “the vote” - the southern states did what they did with the consent of the people of the south - the north with the conesnt of the north - this in and of itself does not prove that one side or the other was correct.

You refer continually to “government” as if it were some entity that is ABOVE and MORE POWERFUL than the people!

You are so right and "those people" are so wrong, even so called FR conservatives who seem to totally misunderstand what the USC is all about. One day "those people" are going to get a real history lesson.

"You refer continually to “government” as if it were some entity that is ABOVE and MORE POWERFUL than the people!"

Not true, you refer to the state as if it is more powerful than the people or acts on the people's behalf. It acts on behalf of the people just as the federal government does. I do realize that the states created the federal government and the states are there to serve the people.

"As to “the vote” - the southern states did what they did with the consent of the people of the south"

There was no popular vote, the state government or assemblies of representitives did this. I grant you that if put to the popular vote it would have passed, but basically the states government did it, not the people. As you noted, if you could just dissolve states and secede from the union wily nilly there would be anarchy. This was not the first attempt at secession and the founders were against any state or states seceding once they got in. You guys can't get around that.

Jefferson and the rest of the founders believed that it was your duty to rebel when a government became too oppressive. However, even they tried to work through the system for 10 years before they actually rebelled. Was not extending slavery to new states and territories so oppressive to the Southern states that they immediately had to secede? Think about it, seriously.