Posted on 11/12/2009 6:21:42 PM PST by JoeProBono
Four hundred years after Renaissance philosopher Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for his belief in the "plurality of worlds" (aliens), scientists and religious leaders gathered this week at a seemingly more open-minded Vatican for a conference on astrobiology (aliens).
The meeting focussed on current science, rather than the theological quandaries thrown up by the possibilty of other life forms beyond this planet. But that hasn't stopped debate spilling over outside the conference.
Yesterday I spoke to Paul Davies, a cosmologist from Arizona State University, just after he addressed the conference. In his view, the possibility of other civilisations - potentially more intelligent than our own - puts Christians “in a real bind”. Specifically, he says that nobody's satisfactorily addressed the question of whether aliens get saved. “The Catholic church offers a very species specific brand of salvation. Noone says that Jesus came to save the dolphins and certainly not little green men,” he said.
The possibility of extraterrestrial life does not pose the same problems for Eastern religions, which tend to be less Earth-centric, or Islam, which speaks explicitly of life beyond Earth, he said.
The Vatican does not have an official position on alien life forms, but a number of its scientists have spoken out on the issue. Father Jose Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory told the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, that the possibility of “brother extraterrestrials” was not incompatible with Catholic theology.
William Stroeger, an astrophysicist at the Vatican Observatory Research Group and a Jesuit priest, agreed: “There might be fundamentalists for whom the two things are incompatible but mainline congregations - Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists - would not have a problem with this,” he said.
Stroeger pointed out that the Catechism introduced after the second Vatican council states that there can be no conflict between science and religion. “If there’s a contradiction it means that we haven’t understood or interpreted one of them correctly,” he said.
This may be the case, but I agree with Davies that this isn't a trivial issue for theologists. Giggle factor aside, the question of whether Jesus would save aliens goes right to the heart of Christian beliefs. If you believe that "intelligent life" equals having a soul, then you have to ask where you'd draw the line. If scientists found dolphins on a distant planet, they would be mad with excitement at having found something so smart. But what would theologians make of them?
Stroeger conceded that the discovery of intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe would pose a challenge, but said that it would not be insurmountable. “There are some difficult issues to resolve, such as whether Jesus as saviour is the one who saves everyone in the Universe or if there are other equivalent salvation events that take place elsewhere in the Universe,” he said.
I was left feeling slightly mind-boggled at how you would even begin to answer such a question.
There is NOTHING in the Bible that contradicts the possibility that God might have created other sentient beings in His image at other places in His Cosmos. By your definition, they would thus be "men". Since God Himself is not a material being, whatever aspect of man that is "in His image", is obviously NOT our physical form. We simply do not know exactly what that applies to.
This concept takes NOTHING away from the Gospel, which applies to OUR situation here in THIS tiny portion of God's creation. For all we know, the other "men" never failed God's test, as Adam did, and are currently living in the same union with the Creator that Adam lost.
Well, thank you for your insightful and contemplative post. I found it most enlightening and cogent.
Perhaps I shall also substitute capitalization for reasons in favor of my position.
I shall without doubt endeavor to make use of terms such as ‘baloney’ in future polemics in order to expand upon my own lexicon.
Such well disciplined and thorough apologetics are rare indeed.
HAHAHAHA! Egg tempera on a triptych panel. Groovey!
Actually, Adam and Eve were considered immortal before falling. The warning from God that if they ate of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, they would die, implies, that they would not die if they never disobeyed and ate from that tree. While we were created lower than the angels, we shared in that expectation of immortality before falling.
The eternal life that we gain by placing our trust in Jesus, is not something that we can lose. As Paul said, "Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. "
I agree with Warthog. The bible never says that there are two and only two types of sentinent creatures. In fact, I think if you look at the living beasts/creatures/beings of Revelations 4 that are around the throne, and praise God, they don’t seem to fit either category of angels or man.
The strongest argument that I see for there not being alien life, is that the history of the world and universe appears tied to human history. In Genesis, the stars were created for the earth, not vice versa. In the Old Testament and in Revelations, the destruction and recreation of the universe appears tied to human history and judgement.
Is that to say that God could not have created another sentinent creature whose history he has also managed to time or before the destruction of the universe. No, he could have. I just think it’s doubtful.
In that respect, I agree with esquirette, that UFO sightings may well be the sighting of angelic vehicles similar to the “Wheels within wheels” chariot that one of the Old Testament prophets saw. And whether those angels are fallen or not, can’t tell.
Well said. I think your point about the other beings described in Revelation is interesting.
Two Terrans travel to Venus ... one to tempt "Eve", the other to defend her from the tempter.
/mark
Then “Out of the Silent Planet”, “Perelandra”, and “That Hideous Strength”. It is a trilogy.
That seems a ridiculous stretch...
I miss those little guys. Maybe the Destiny will encounter an offshoot.
That depends on your perspective. And "insignificant star on the outskirts of an average galaxy in an average sized galactic cluster" speaks volumes about your perspective.
If you take the evolutionist view that we are happenstance, and that somehow the odds of life occurring and evolving new functionality is more common and easier than it appears, because we are here, so it must be easier than we think, then yeah it does seem a stretch.
But if you take the Genesis view that the stars weren't created until Earth's 3rd day, implying that everything else in the Universe was for the benefit of earth. Then billions of galaxies each full of billions of stars is simply a reminder of how powerful our God really is. But then He would have to be.
To have personal relationships with each of the 2 billion Christians on a daily basis, not to mention the angels and the past saints, all simultaneously, He has to be a truly phenomenal God, with power that is just unimaginable.
We are still unraveling the complexity of the Universe, and we are still unraveling the complexity of the single cell. Both speak to the wonder of His skill.
Actually them’s the facts, not a perspective. Everything in Genesis was created from the perspective of Earth.
“But if you take the Genesis view that the stars weren't created until Earth's 3rd day” which I do not.
One could say also that Earth couldn't ‘see’ stars until the 3rd day. (Another interpretation of an interpretation etc.).
“implying that everything else in the Universe was for the benefit of earth”
Implies nothing about Earth's benefit - that statement is an interpretation.
“Then billions of galaxies each full of billions of stars is simply a reminder of how powerful our God really is.”
Oh come on! That is just hubris on the interpreter’s part, who just cannot conceive that intelligent life exists elsewhere - the same crowd that thought there could not possibly be water on any planet other than Earth, or that stars were anything other than small night sky lights.
To say that G_d was so limited as to only be able to create on all those zillion trillion planets one intelligent life form (us) - which is arguably in doubt - is to limit G_d to near insignificance - no wonder that Islam grows so fast.
The position you are taking applies only to man and his relationship to God HERE, on THIS planet. What He does elsewhere we simply do not know. But nothing whatsoever in the Bible rules out (or even hints against) the existence of other created beings elsewhere in the cosmos. Nor to we know what THEIR relationship to God might be.
There is no reason for "ET" to "fit into" the Biblical progression of salvation history at all. The Universe is a BIG place. To think that little tiny Earth off in a completely ordinary corner of a single galaxy out of many millions is the total center of God's attention is just as ridiculous as the old idea that the sun and planets revolve around the earth. But that in NO sense detracts from God's majesty and glory. If anything, it makes it even greater. If God knows every sparrow that falls, he has sufficient capacity to handle man's salvation history and many others simultaneously.
Nice response. Riddled with error, but nice.
We are wary of joining ranks with the persecutors of Copernicus and Galileo, and so we err on the side of the secular instead of the sacred. But to do so is to be mistaken.
If you read my posts, I've never said that intelligent life can't exist elsewhere. I've said it's entirely possible and scripture doesn't say.
But I also made the case that the universe's start and end in scripture appears tied to human history. You've already rejected the start as being an "interpretation of an interpretation". Do you do the same with the end?
Isaiah, Peter and John all tell us the heavens and the earth will melt and be created new. Coincidently, this occurs at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. The universe's end appears tied to human history.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
Could God have created other life and coordinated their history with ours, so that they all end at the same time prior to the new heavens? Sure. But it's also entirely possible that God created billions of galaxies for the sure art of it or for any other number of reasons and I don't view that as hubris.
I was pleasantly surprised to see this post.
I’ve been posting about a related topic all day.
Please see the comments section of the following post as there are too many to list separately.
http://blessedistruth.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/the-heart-and-soul-of-the-andes/
Thanks and I apologize if this should have been posted elsewhere.
(Mostly about Dr. Steven Greer and Disclosure)
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