Posted on 02/18/2009 11:45:26 AM PST by Chet 99
lol...only against a select few...lots of back up on the board if we need it.
‘Does viscous pertain to something other than a tendency to bite?’
Yes, it does. A ‘tendency to bite’ can be found in any dog breed, just as a tendency to smack the wife around can be found among humans. Its not the ‘norm’, but it does happen.
‘Vicious breed’ as it relates here is the oft repeated claim by ignorant people about a breed of dog the media has generated publicity about, or hollywood has.
BAck in the 1970’s, it was Dobermans, for example. In the early 1980’s it was Rottweillers.
Both became ‘status symbols’ among the lower ranks of our society (criminals of various stripes).
Its been ‘pitbulls’ for the past fifteen years or so. Even though German Shepards have been ‘caught on tape’ uncounted times attacking/maiming/ and sometimes killing a kid breaking into a junkyard to steal car parts for example.
There is no such thing as a ‘vicious breed’ of dog. There are however, vicious dogs. The percentage of those dogs is exceedingly low when you consider the entire population as a whole.
Whats being done here is no different than what our gun grabbers do with firearm related violence. They are taking a set of numbers, without any background context, and putting it out as ‘The Only Truth’.
Let me give an example, using firearms.
We have outlawed full automatic weapons - machineguns - for 80 years.
Did you know there has never been a documented case of a legally owned full automatic weapon (machine gun) being used to commit ANY crime?
Yet listen to some wailing about ‘automatics’ every day, across the country. They don’t tell you the fact I just shared with you, because its POLITICAL and EMOTION based.
Same thing with the larger, more powerful dogs.
You don’t leave your five year old alone in a room with a gun, for the obvious reason.
Same applies to the larger more powerful breeds of dog.
You know, I noticed more rational conversation this time around, then just a few months back.
And I’m also seeing ‘Badeye I asked my vet’ which makes me happy as can be.
The truth, no matter if we like it or not, is always The Truth.
Time to go home and hang with my ‘pack’. See ya later.
I don't have a dog int this fight - so to speak. but I think Wicket has made the salient point; statically, you have more trouble with attacks - more deaths - with pit bulls.
Period.
Bingo
Especially when you factor in the percentage of pit bulls v. other breeds.
Pit bulls are a dangerous breed popularized by the drug culture.
It was a joke - I was yanking your chain a little bit.
And your vet agreed with me, there is no such thing as a ‘vicious breed’. He didn’t say that, as you recount here.
I am not sure how you would come to that conclusion. Maybe he didn't use the exact word "vicious" but he most decidedly was NOT in agreement with your assessment of no vicious breeds. He clearly implied his belief that there were "vicious" breeds. He would agree with you on your opposition to vicious breed bans, but not on the existence of vicious breeds. How would you define the word vicious? Most people would equate vicious with ideas like a propensity for sudden, aggressive, unprovoked, sustained attacks.
unless you have a phobia about large dogs
I used to own Irish Wolfhounds, so I am not intimidated by the size of a dog. I am a little cautious around any dog until I get a clear read on their disposition, more so with larger dogs and dogs of particular breeds (such as Rotts or Stratfordshire Terriers).
I agree with y’all.
“I guess I’m the Alpha Male (I’m actually the Mom of the family) because he obeys me well.”
I don’t presume to know much about dogs, especially pit bulls. That’s why I was careful not to condemn the breed or their owners in my post - I’m not in a position to know. I would think that a reputable breeder/trainer would be the person to give the correct advice. Good luck with your new pet!
Here is a set of definitions...
vicious (adj)...
I think we could agree that the first three don't apply to dogs.
(contrary to the author's attempt to characterize dog behavior as malicious)
#4's "destructive" certainly seems an appropriate description of an attack.
Violent(adj) = "Involving extreme force or motion" is an appropriate description of behavior during an attack...
"cruel" imo is a description, because of the intent it implies, of human not canine behavior.
In #5... "savage" if defined as "fierce and ferocious" is acceptable as a description of some attacks
Aggressive?... certainly an accurate description of attack behavior.
Aggression is the behavior I normally work with
since all aggressive behavior towards humans is unacceptable
whether it culminates in an actual attack or not.
So we can agree that dogs can be violent, destructive, fierce, ferocious and aggressive,
that is exhibit vicious behavior, be vicious.
The question is...is viciousness an appropriate description of a class of objects
or only the specific behavior of a member of that class?
Eg...This dog engaged in vicious behavior
Therefore all dogs of this breed are vicious
i.e. the breed is vicious
doesn't follow logically.
We can still ask... do some breeds have a higher proclivity for aggression?
There are temperament test that have been developed to measure
a dog's likelihood of exhibiting aggressive behavior.
The 'pit bull' types consistently rank high, that is, they show stability
and non-aggressive responses to triggers used to elicit aggression.
Some could argue effectively that terriers are generally more aggressive than some other types of dogs
based on the function, vermin control/ hunting, they were developed and used for.
for example my friend's JRT is an avid hunter of squirrels, he is aggressive towards squirrels.
Yet he is not 'normally' aggressive towards human beings.
Which leads to distinguishing between the objects of a dog's aggression.
"pit bulls" may have been used in dog fighting in the past
and still are in some quarters.
Any responsible breeder will caution you that your dog may exhibit aggression towards other dogs.
This is certainly not a problem limited only to "pit bulls" and all dog owners need to be aware of the potential.
I know many "pit bulls" that exhibit no aggression towards other dogs
yet I don't forget that potentially they may.
In any case this aggression does not translate into a proclivity to exhibit aggression towards humans
any more than my friend's JRT thirst for squirrel blood makes him totally unreliable among humans.
No properly trained, maintained, socialized, contained and supervised dog,
the property of a informed, responsible owner, should ever attack a human.
The chance of it happening are infinitesimally small.
That being said...
I think the evidence shows and we are fairly safe in generalizing
that all dogs are capable, have the potential, of exhibiting vicious behavior.
Back even the friendliest, wimpiest dog into a corner
and the chances are good it will exhibit aggressive/vicious behavior.
Types of Canine Aggression....
Into the mix we add what an analysis of dog attacks has taught us...
Salient or Common Factors
OWNER MANAGEMENT & CONTROL OF DOGSOwners failing to humanely contain, control and maintain their dogs (chained dogs, loose roaming dogs, cases of abuse/neglect), and owners failing to properly supervise interaction between children and dogs.
FUNCTION OF DOG
Owners maintaining dogs for guarding/protection, fighting, intimidation/status, or as yard dogs. Such dogs are resident dogs, not family pets.
REPRODUCTIVE STATUS OF DOG
Owners failing to spay or neuter animals not used for competition, show, or in a responsible breeding program.
91% of all fatal dog attacks from 2005-2007 were due to one or more of these critical factors.3
Thanks to anyone that followed the post thru to the end.
Much more could be said but I need a break :)
Good point. Our Pit breeder allowed us to visit before the pups were born. We met the Momma dog, saw the kennel and whelping box, were offered to meet the family that owned the daddy dog. They had references including their vet.
That and we have experience with Pits so we didn’t go into this blind.
Actually what is documented here is the ‘reported’ attacks.
A pit bull is a powerful dog. No one disputes it.
However, they are hardly the ‘most likely to bite’.
The ‘problem’ is when they do bite....well, 1600 pounds of pressure does more than leave a ‘red mark’ on you.
No disputing the ‘death tally’ at all here. But you have to look at that particular stat ‘in context’. The number of pit bulls, and mixed breed offshoots of the breed had at least quadrupled in the past two decades in America.
Its driven by ‘street cred’ and males that feel the need to compensate for some other aspect of their life, or their self image. Those types don’t have a freakin CLUE how to handle a pit bull, any more than your average LA Gangbanger understands how to care for a HORSE.
Period.
‘I am not sure how you would come to that conclusion. Maybe he didn’t use the exact word “vicious” ‘
I’m sitting here laughing a bit at this part. Do you ‘see’ why?
Your vet agreed with my statement from a few months ago. He didn’t use the term ‘vicious’ because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A VICIOUS BREED.
I understand you are having a hard time accepting this.
Fortunately, your vet doesn’t have that personal issue.
Since my vet is also a personal friend, I called him last night and clarified. Requesting a yes or no answer, I asked him straight up if there are vicious breeds of dogs. He responded YES. He went on to explain that some breeds of dogs do not socialize well, are aggressive and unpredictable, and can represent a menace to human beings and domesticated animals. You should be satisfied (but somehow, I know you won't) since he explicitly used the word vicious a few times when describing these dog breeds.
I understand you are having a hard time accepting this.
You can see the irony here, can't you? As an outsider to the conversation, YOU are trying to convince me that I misunderstood what was said. It is YOU who is twisting my vet's words into something he didn't say which suggests it is YOU who is having the "hard time accepting this."
Fortunately, your vet doesn’t have that personal issue.
Apparently, he does.
Pardon me, but I simply don’t believe it. I’m not trying to be offensive, but nope, I don’t believe your vet said this.
Fine, whatever. Believe what you want but don't claim that every vet in the world would back you up on this.
‘Believe what you want but don’t claim that every vet in the world would back you up on this. ‘
Actually I will continue to do so, because its simply the truth. There is no such thing as a ‘vicious dog breed’.
Ask a more competent vet.
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