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mrjesse - But what about the point in question - as to whether, for an observer on earth, at an instant in time, the sun's apparent position will be 2.1 degrees behind its actual position? Do you agree with LeGrande on that one? Even though his same math and method would put Pluto out of the night sky when seen in the night sky? And even though there are no supporting scientific reports? And even though there are plenty of scientific reports which describe the sun having an apparent instantanious displacement of about 20 arcseconds -- not 2.1 degrees?

mrjesse - Of course the sun will still appear to move at 2.1 degrees per 8.3 minutes after it is shut off. (LG I added the last part 'after it is shut off' for clarification.

By your own logic, the Sun can't appear to continue moving if the actual and apparent position are only 20 arcseconds apart (or at least not more than 20 arcseconds anyway, which is miniscule.) Which is it mrjesse? Does the Sun appear to continue to move across the sky for 8.3 minutes or does the Sun appear to stop in the sky until the light goes out?

But a lie is a lie!

I think that you actually believe that you know the truth, that is scary. When someone shows me an error that I have been making, I thank them. I don't call them a liar. When someone points out an error to you creationists you attack them. I suppose you attack out of fear and rage, trust me, the fear and rage can be replaced by awe and amazement when you truly start seeing the Universe for how it is, but that involves letting go of false beliefs.

The fact that LeGrande refuses to answer the my question ("What if the sun were 12 light hours away..") and refuses (or is unable) to provide a single supporting scientific article - these facts tell me that LeGrande must know that he's wrong and is therefor intentionally knowingly lying.

I have answered the question. You are the one that is lying mrjesse. You also have the tools to answer the question yourself. If you look at an object 12 light hours away as it comes up over the Eastern horizon (at which time its light is shut off) which direction will you be facing 12 hours later when you see the light go out? East? Straight up? West? I know you know the answer so I will save you some time, you will be looking West, 180 degrees from when you first saw the object and the light was shut off. Thus, from the observers frame of reference, the actual and apparent position are 180˚ off, not your measly little 20 arcseconds or so.

Now mrjesse, do you know why Astonomers don't use the Earth as our frame of reference? In fact there is no absolute frame of reference. I know that you have stated that you don't want to get into that but sometimes background knowledge is important : )

“The reason I have avoided answering your more esoteric questions is because” ... [excerpt: 1225]

“I have answered the question. You are the one that is lying mrjesse.” [excerpt: 1226]

Either you did or you didn't. (Make up your mind already!)

Lets see a link to where you answered mrjesse's question of "What if the sun were 12 light hours away.."

“In fact there is no absolute frame of reference.” [excerpt: 1226]

Thats like saying there is no Cartesian coordinate system.

frame of reference : a set or system (as of facts or ideas) serving to orient or give particular meaning [Britannica-Webster 1981]

“If I can't explain the 'simple' stuff to you I would be an idiot trying to explain the more complex stuff. In fact I think I am an idiot for trying to explain the simple stuff, but I don't mind being laughed at, or called dishonest, when I am right : )” [excerpt: 1225]

Well, if your right, then you have no reason to not explain the more complex stuff.

Said LeGrande:By your own logic, the Sun can't appear to continue moving ...

That's a lie about my own logic

... if the actual and apparent position are only 20 arcseconds apart (or at least not more than 20 arcseconds anyway, which is miniscule.) Which is it mrjesse?

The sun only appears to move at 2.1 degrees per 8.3 minutes - it doesn't really move at that rate! It appears to move at that rate because the earth rotates at that rate.

Does the Sun appear to continue to move across the sky for 8.3 minutes or does the Sun appear to stop in the sky until the light goes out?

The light still coming from the sun will appear to come from the same place (+/- 20 arc sec) that the sun actually is regardless of whether the sun is oni at the moment. And it will continue to appear to move at 2.1d/8.3m because the earth continues to rotate. You're super confused on that one I think.

Said MrJesse: The fact that LeGrande refuses to answer the my question ("What if the sun were 12 light hours away..") and refuses (or is unable) to provide a single supporting scientific article - these facts tell me that LeGrande must know that he's wrong and is therefor intentionally knowingly lying.
Responded LeGrande: I have answered the question. You are the one that is lying mrjesse. You also have the tools to answer the question yourself.

You have many times told me that I'm lying and not once provided any evidence of what I said that wasn't true. And you have many times told me that you answered my question, but you have never pointed out just where it was that you answered my question and I don't remember you answering my question.

So why not be a man and instead of just saying that I'm lying or just saying that you answered my question -- how about point to where you did answer my question and point out where I actually did lie?

And if you really believe that you're telling the truth when you claim that for an observer on earth at a point in time the sun will appear 2.1 degrees behind it's actual and gravitational position -- then why not apply the same math to Pluto? I mean, our own Pluto! Orbits the sun just like we do! Only a maximum of 6.8 light hours away! Can be seen with the right kind of telescope!

And in case you forgot what my question was, here it is again:
At an instant in time for an observer on earth when Pluto is 6.8 light hours away and the earth rotates 102 degrees in 6.8 hours - roughly what would the difference be between apparent and actual position? Would our own Pluto really be below the horizon at the moment we could see it directly overhead?

Again, same question different planet:

At an instant in time for an observer on earth looking at a relatively stationary and bright heavenly body that was 12 light hours away and above the earth's equator - roughly how lagged would the apparent position be from the actual position? Would it's gravity really pull to the east at the moment hat it appeared in the west?

With all the stuff you've written on this topic, with all the strange examples you've given, there's really no reason to not just answer the above two questions. I've answered your questions but you're using them to buy time. If you didn't have time to answer these simple questions, then you wouldn't have written the volumes that you have.

-Jesse