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mrjesse - So in answer to your question I'm telling you that the sun was within about 20 arc seconds of where it appeared to be when it was shut off, and the apparent position of the sun will still continue to be within about 20 arc seconds of its actual position for the remainder of the 8.3 minutes.

mrjesse - That's a silly statement - but you asked it. Of course the sun will still appear to move at 2.1 degrees per 8.3 minutes because that's the rate the earth is rotating at. But every last lightwave will strike the earth within about 20 arcseconds of the direction of the sun.

Not because of the Earths rotation, it is because of the time lag of the light. You are seeing the Sun where it was 8.3 minutes ago. Yes the light that you are seeing came from the Sun and it is within 20 arcseconds of where the Sun was, but 'was' is the important point. The suns actual position when it was turned off was 2.1 degrees ahead of where you saw it when it was turned off. That is why the Sun appeared to continue moving 2.1 degrees in 8.3 minutes, from the time it was shut off.

It is most dishonest of you to claim that your statements are true when you refuse to apply your own math and method to a sun that was 12 light hours away or to Pluto which can be up to 6.8 light hours away.

Dishonest of me? Wow! Your cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming. Exactly the same principles are at work at whatever distance the object is away from you.

The reason I have avoided answering your more esoteric questions is because distance changes the effect in several ways. Notably light has been preceding the object for hours, years or Millennia. You can be seeing way, way into the past and the relationship of its direction based on an angle from a rotating earth is meaningless.

If I can't explain the 'simple' stuff to you I would be an idiot trying to explain the more complex stuff. In fact I think I am an idiot for trying to explain the simple stuff, but I don't mind being laughed at, or called dishonest, when I am right : )

Said MrJesse:It is most dishonest of you to claim that your statements are true when you refuse to apply your own math and method to a sun that was 12 light hours away or to Pluto which can be up to 6.8 light hours away.
Replied LeGrande: Dishonest of me? Wow! Your cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming. Exactly the same principles are at work at whatever distance the object is away from you.

The reason I have avoided answering your more esoteric questions is because distance changes the effect in several ways. Notably light has been preceding the object for hours, years or Millennia. You can be seeing way, way into the past and the relationship of its direction based on an angle from a rotating earth is meaningless.

What do you mean my more "esoteric questions?" You mean like "What about Pluto?" A 12-light-hour distant sun may be hypothetical but hardly esoteric. And Pluto is neither hypothetical nor esoteric! Don't worry about years or greater time distances - just answer for Pluto if you can't imagine a planet 12 light hours away!

Look: You and I disagree about whether a there is a difference between spinning and being orbited in a two_body+light model. You say that there is no difference between being orbited and spinning, and I say there is a difference between being orbited in such a model.

And the best way for us to understand which of us is correct is for you to answer a few simple questions. If your view is correct, then your math will work with Pluto in a way that agrees with observed reality. If you are wrong, then you will come to conclusions that are simply not scientifically supported.

I already answered all your questions (although at some point I may stop because I'm pretty sure you're just buying time since you refuse to answer mine) and I've already applied my theory or understanding to the sun and pluto. I have said that the sun will appear about 20 arcseconds displaced due to the observer's transverse velocity (and not because of the distance to the sun) and this is exactly what scientific reports say - that the sun and all other stars appear to be displaced by about 20 arcseconds when the earth has full orbital transverse velocity. Just go search google for "Stellar Aberration" and you'll see lots of documents which describe 20 arcseconds of displacement.)

So I've been very happy to apply my view to different tests - but you still refuse to apply your own view to quite a few different thought experiments, including:

If I tilted my merry go around so the top pointed to the north star and I set my merry go around with me on it rotating 180 degrees per 8.3 minutes, would the sun appear in the east at the point in time that its gravity pulled to the west?

When, for an observer on earth, at an instant in time, Pluto was 6.8 light hours away, when we look up and see it, will it really be about 102 degrees off from where it appears? (that's 2.1 degrees per 8.3 minutes)

Why not just answer these questions? So easy. Even if you won't answer them, can you explain why you won't answer them?

Or can you explain why I should believe your claim when you refuse to apply it to simple tests, and when you cannot provide any supporting scientific sources? Can you explain why I should believe that you believe yourself when you don't have enough confidence in your own ideas to put them to the test?

Thanks,

-Jesse