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To: Soliton; metmom; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; svcw
If you want to describe God as having gravity, fine. I suggest that that would make God part of the materialistic universe, but since God can be anything, including internally inconsistent, I will defer to your judgement.

As far as I can tell, Spirit has no matter thus no gravity. While no one can exhaustively "define God," the common, enduring insight of Israel, classical philosophy, and Christianity is that God cannot be internally inconsistent with himself, and that he does not lie. The order of the natural world and the moral world of men absolutely depends on these insights being true. Moreoever, this understanding is foundational in the Western and specifically American cultural tradition. Indeed, the American idea of "rule of law, not rule by men" is premised in this understanding.

140 posted on 12/09/2008 3:31:27 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
While no one can exhaustively "define God," the common, enduring insight of Israel, classical philosophy, and Christianity is that God cannot be internally inconsistent with himself

You have just put a limit on God

142 posted on 12/09/2008 3:41:12 PM PST by Soliton (This 2 shall pass)
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To: betty boop; metmom; Soliton; hosepipe; svcw
Thank you so very much for your excellent points and this fascinating sidebar, dearest sister in Christ!

On the subject of gravity, it should also be noted some have theorized that gravity is so small by comparison to the other major forces because it is inter-dimensional. The root may not be a multi-verse (e.g. foam theories) but rather, another dimension.

On Gravity, Oreos and a Theory of Everything

Such a situation, they realized to their surprise, could provide a natural explanation for the hierarchy problem without invoking supersymmetry. Suppose, they said, that gravity is actually inherently as strong as the other forces, but because of the warping gravity is much much stronger on one of the branes than on the other one, where we happen to live. So we experience gravity as extremely weak.

"You can be only a modest distance away from the gravity brane," Dr. Randall said, "and gravity will be incredibly weak." A result was a natural explanation for why atomic forces outgun gravity by 10 million billion to 1. Could this miracle be true? Crazy as it sounded, they soon discovered an even more bizarre possibility. The fifth dimension could actually be infinite and we would not have noticed it.

It should also be noted that Sir Hermann Bondi back in the late 1950’s posited negative mass (negative gravity) that works theoretically well in general relativity. For more: Anti-gravity and anti-mass

Of course scifi authors and those who hope for warp speed space travel love such theories but we ought to consider Bondi along with Randall and current measurements of dark energy at about 74% of the total mass of the universe.

For lurkers: dark energy can be visualized as the space between galaxies whereas dark matter would be visualized as the high gravity regions, e.g. center of galaxies, black holes. Dark matter is about 22% of the total mass of the universe. The remaining 4% is ordinary matter, that which we can directly see.

When we do, it becomes apparent that dark energy may appear as negative gravity when observed from our position on the brane (inter-dimensional gravity.) Geometrically, the affect would be space/time “outdents” accelerating the expansion of the universe.

One more step. Consider that the fifth dimension might be an expanded time-like dimension (P.S. Wesson) – and all of the particles in the observable four dimensional universe would actually be massless, multiply imaged from as little as a single particle in the fifth time-like dimension.

And that of course brings us right back to Max Tegmark's Level IV Parellel Universe model wherein the four dimensional physical perceptible universe is a manifestation of mathematical structures which actually do exist outside of space and time.

Obviously to many of us Christians, that brings it all back to the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, the rational structure of physical reality, Logos, the Word of God, its Creator, Jesus Christ, Who is God.

In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

And, as you have pointed out, although the scientific theories are quite fascinating, precious few aspects can be tested under laboratory conditions (e.g. CERN's LHC) or observed by sensory perception. Moreover, the scientific method is an inadequate toolset to answer the deepest questions, e.g. what is there something instead of nothing? And “methodological naturalism” is a narrowed field of inquiry. Only theologians and philosophers can “go there.”

Scientific theories cannot obviate God. Multi-verse (or any other scientific theory) is not an either/or to God.

To God be the glory!

157 posted on 12/09/2008 10:31:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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