Posted on 10/13/2007 6:14:00 PM PDT by fatima
recalling from the methadone-in-Anna conversations, it would be several hours after receiving an overdose of methadone, for the overdose to manifest fatality.
There was a much earlier report that those in the rooms nextdoor, heard the rucus about 9am - about half an hour before a nurse was called to the room - don’t know if that report had any substance to it but...it does seem that the timeframe of from howie’s second return to the room ‘after 4am’ until the 6:20 observation of Daniel ‘adjusting’ his mother’s bed is important. An overdose of methadone given at 6’ish, would manifest fatal several hours later, i.e, 9am. imo
“Why would howie think that feces in pants would be ‘embarassing’ to Daniel’s memory? Wasn’t howie aware that all deceased evacuate their bladder and bowels at death and it’s not an ‘embarassment’ to a deceased person, since that person is, after all, deceased?”
If he was so worried at that, why not take his underwear too!?
HaHA! i guess! lolol :)
Just had a thought on the abrasions on Daniel. Maybe what he was given caused a seizure and was being held down?
is it customary for witnesses to be able to observe other testimony? i forget
wilma?
wilma flintstone of course! Willlllmmmmaaaaaa !hehe:)
woopss! i should have re-worded that, many deceased, not ‘all’...geesh
LOLL I never even “saw” that. But if he voided his bowels, then his undies would have “stuff” on them. The jeans may have had tears from a struggle.
No, it’s not - in the US, they’re usually sequestered in the witness room until they’ve given their testimony, then they’re free to sit in the “audience,” if they want.
It appears to be a ploy on Howie’s part to “act as if” he is following US custom and is now allowed to listen to all the other witness testimony. Altho, I’m sure he would’ve done it this way, anyway, whether he got Munroe to wangle him an early appearance on the stand or not.
He always gives himself away, tho, by not being able to resist answering criticism, complaints or discovery of his non-truth-telling. He’ll have convenient excuses for every single thing any witness says that even remotely construes him in any kind of off-white light - whether or not he is even asked for explanations.
Who is Wilma?
I think they were referring to a new poster that was supposed to be an investigator that worked with O’Quinn (?) Someone correct me.
I think gopher is right. I think they allude to Wilma Vice who allegedly was with Clark when he was investigating in the Bahamas.
You make a good point that for the abrasions to turn red (which we’re assuming they were), he had to be alive when he got them. But the idea that someone was going through his pockets doesn’t quite make sense. Perhaps someone was taking the pants off of him and his body was dead weight due to being comatose. Maybe his body slipped off the bed so someone had to lift him under the armpit to pull him up. That someone might have been in a hurry to get those pants off between nurse visits and was rough. That someone must have known the nursing routine after a few nights in the hospital.
I’ve wondered if Daniel committed suicide. Often a suicide victim experiences a mood of elation prior to taking his life because a decisive solution to his depression is imminent. However, that wouldn’t account for the need to take his jeans. If they were taken off, and away. But Daniel could have taken them off when he got into bed with his mom. Would he sleep next to her bare legged?
What about a sex act? Maybe Anna was playing with him. With her proclivities, incest may not be so far out. Maybe HKS left for a couple hours so they could be alone. Too weird.
What if HKS was playing with Daniel? Originally, it was reported they took a drive to see the island. However, the recent timeline seems to indicate Daniel stayed with his mom the whole night. When would HKS have had the opportunity? While Anna was asleep (after she was given something for her pain most likely). Did Daniel ingest his fatal dose of medicine, fall into a deep sleep, during which HKS fondled him roughly? Would that turn HKS on? Is that why the jeans were removed? Because of spilled semen on them?
That doesn’t even make sense. Maybe the idea that he had a seizure in reaction to the drugs and had to be held down so as not to wake up Anna or fall off the bed is the correct solution. It makes a lot of sense. The autopsy report then might show a red mark on his tongue if he bit it.
Sorry for being so graphic everyone. The final answer might be that the abrasions occurred before Daniel arrived in the Bahamas. If we could see the photographs of them, we could probably answer these questions. Which means the police know the answers. And that is why the original ME said this was a suspicious death.
Another poster, stating inside info (which I don't believe) is saying that Daniel had a bedwetting problem. Stating that that's why he didn't want to sleep in a bed at the hospital and that's why the one pill was partially dissolved.
The seatbelt story might have some merit. Suppose Daniel was telling Howard that he was on to him and Howard slammed on the brakes in anger?
It's all just speculation by others and a bit of MOO.
Alot of people think/opine that Swims is Howard. I can't verify if he is or not since I've missed out on part of the conversations and anyone could be anyone.
School keeps getting in the way of my reading and posting, darn it!
Something about that maybe Howard got a different pair of jeans out and hid? the soiled jeans until he got them to Horizons and "found" those two pills in the pocket which he flushed down the stool.
Some opine that maybe there was some type of soiling on the jeans that wasn't on the underwear and that's what caused Howard to take the jeans. Of course, you know where the speculation goes from there.
I don't recall Howard ever saying he took Daniel's jeans due to the soiling but then I've probably missed alot or forgotten, if that ever was the case.
IMO.
If he was lifted, wouldn’t clothing fibers be intermixed with the ‘liftee’, or is that just too ‘csi’ ?
i thought that was just someone joking around and didn’t pay too much attention.
maybe someone is sweating bullets because she’s solid confirmation of Don Clark’s description of what happened when he went to talk to the nannies and what was said by Thompson and Bain at that specific time? just a guess...
speaking of Bain, has anyone read anything about him turning over that tape he said he had, to greta’s forensic people yet?
it’s shelley that told us the jeans were ‘shaken out’ at the house (which kind of blows the speculation they were soiled - not a good thing to do to soiled jeans lol). why howie would allegedly point out the methadone in Anna’s fridge to Shelley the day of Daniel’s death, before tox reports were even performed, rang a big, big, BIG bell for me.
here’s a reference:
http://www.accesshollywood.com/news/ah4198.shtml
There's still too much speculation on what occurred in the hospital but even this brief bit of testimony changes things: "Howard was holding Anna back AND they were standing at the foot of the bed" when the first doctor entered the room" is something totally new and contrary to what we first heard.
It sure is a strange position considering the event and there's a time thing. Anna would have become terribly strong at that point...Why was Howard "forcing" Anna to stay away from Daniel?
My mom just died. If someone had tried to keep me back from holding her hand or stroking her forhead, they would have lost.
Remember, Howard had said that the first thing he did was check Danny's chaortic artery. How did Howard even get Anna away from Danny and into a standing position? Did she physically go after Howard and he got her into a position where she was physically restrained and THAT's what the doctor who walked in saw??
I truly, truly feel sorry for Anna from this point on for what she endured until her death.
It's the "mothers", Anna and Virgie, who have suffered in all this. I hope there is "Justice" for both in the end.
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