>>Re: Its one thing for someone with no knowledge of science to beleive in an old earth, evolution and to deny God and the age of the earth - my GreatGrandmother did that until her death and Only God and htose who beleive in God know that she gained nothing and that she was infact unfortunately, particularly hurt by her descision for eternity<<
I’ll make what will hopefully be a more coherant post on the main topic when I’m conscious and have had coffee...
But I couldn’t go by that post without expressing sympathy for the pain you feel around you Great Grandmother’s fate.
I would add that it is not known what a person might think and feel at the moment of their death. It is possible, I believe that a person might repent at the very, very end.
I wish the best for you and your family. I will be back later to disagree a couple of your points.
[[But I couldnt go by that post without expressing sympathy for the pain you feel around you Great Grandmothers fate.]]
It was certainly a tough one for me to handle- probably one of the hardest infact. She was a tough woman, grew up hard, lived hard and died hard. I was young at hte time, and couldn’t understand why someone would wager their eternity the way she did. I supppse she could have accepted Christ as Savior right at hte end, but if she did, she certainly kept it to herself and didn’t want anyone knowing she had done so- which is fine- Salvation is really between a person and hte personal God, but as I said- it played out hard on me.
[[I would add that it is not known what a person might think and feel at the moment of their death. It is possible, I believe that a person might repent at the very, very end]]
True- and hopefulyl that’s the case, however, I suspect not. The reason it hit me so hard I guess is because I had a near death ‘experience’ (I don’t take a stand on whether a person actually dies or not when htey have the experience- I personally think, knowing what little I do abotu hte subject, that a person’s mind goes haywire right before hte point of death, anbd I had a fever of 106 (due to peritinitis) and I think that played a part- but I must say- whatever the case, whether an actual out of body experience or not, it was very vivid, and leaves quite an impression) anyways, in my NDE- I didn’t get to see bright white lights and see peace and comfort- nope- I went the other way, and wowsers- I don’t know if you’ve ever read of people’s NDE’s who experienced hell or not- but good golly- Let me just state that the little time I spent in that condition was absolutely frightening- not just a little scary- but truly frightening- I won’t go into the long story here as I’ve recoutned it here on FR a couple of times already, but briefly, let me just state that experiencing pure evil and hatred is an experience not to be desired. Anyway, like I said, I don’t know whether NDE’s are actual experiences or not, I suspect not, but I do think that it is possible that the Evil One can and most likely does ‘attack’ weakened minds such as those at near death. Soem might question this thinking perhaps that it’s nothing more than a mind going haywire, conjuring up ‘primitive images of fear’ because we’re all subconsciously afraid of death and have heard along hte way that Hell = bad, but I’m not ocnvinced of that as there are those who describe things in the room that they couldn’t possibly see laying down- I don’t put too much stock in that though as it is I suppose possible that they saw the items subconsciously before passing out, when being wheeled into the room or osmething, but Still, it’s an unexplanable situation.
I’m rambling, so Point- [[ It is possible, I believe that a person might repent at the very, very end.]]
I really wish this could be a constant inthat it happens the same way for everyone- a last minute, predictable situation where a person could do so, and I know this isn’t what you were referring to with My GG, as she did have a chance for a lastm inute appeal if she so chose to, but a point I’d liek ot make is the obvious for hte rest of us, we can’t count on lastm inute appeals as , as we know, life has no gauruntees about life expectency. The time to appeal to God is sooner, rather than counting on a time to do so later, because htere may be no later.
I’ve often told of my NDE, and had people say “Well aint that just grand? Tryign to ‘scare people into salvation’”, and I’ve often thought about that, but I’ve coem to hte conclusion that eternity isn’t a joke, it isn’t somethign we can just ignore, put off, or just not believe in in hopes that it doesn’t really exist. I personally was saved shortly after a ‘Hell-Fire and Brimstone’ sermon, and folks I guess rightly wonder if perhaps it wasn’t just out of fear that I kneeled before the Lord, instead of out of genuine repentence, and I just want ot quickly touch on that because there is I think a big misconception about God. Folks hear that God is love, and perhaps think He’s kind, that He overlooks all our ills etc. Well He is, but He is also a fearsomely awesome God- Those who came into His presence fell down flat as though dead, hiding hteir faces for fear of being consumed. There’s an old sentiment that talks about instilling hte ‘fear of God’ in folks, and really, As I m,entioned, eternity is no game- we get one chance, and that’s that.
I know I’ve kind of ramlbed a bit off topic here, but almost done, and wrapping up the point. Kev brought up a good point, and I can certainly understand where He’s coming from when he said “Im afraid that what will happen though, is because of all of our infighting... then we need to get the HELL of this rock.” I know subjects on FR get pretty heated at times, and people often feel strongly about issues, and it would seem that all the infighting might lead to losing sight of the important issues in life, but really, when it comes down to it, the infighting I think is out of a sense of urgency about eternity. Will we hold fast to ideas that can’t secure eternity? Or will we concider- at least concider, that the problems with a naturalistic hypothesis about life might be too servere to be plausible, and truly do an objective annalysis of naturalism and see that desing on all levels, even at hte biogentic levels is too complexly constructed to be accounted for by nasturaslistic means?
I certainly don’t understand God, Don’t understand why everythign has to be so darned hard, why evil has to triumph all the time, why htings couldn’t just be easy and wonderful instead of grueling and rife with heartache for many, and it often seems as though a God who truly loved us wouldn’t have allowed these thigns to happen, but I think that it’s more not about His love for us, as He obviously does, but about whether or not we’ll hold fast to ideas that can’t secure our eternity in heaven, or if we’ll set aside our a priori beliefs, and take a true objective look at the evidneces, exchanging a faith for a system that can’t save for one that shows the marvelous designs and the fingerprints of God when those evidences are examined dispassionately and without a priori beleifs.
Sorry- didn’t think this was going to be so long- We all certainly want off this rock in the end, but let’s do so examining the evidence, and not just brushing aside the impossible hurdles that impeed a hypothesis plagued with problems.