[Ultra Sonic 007]

Actually, if you read more of the Apology, Socrates makes it clear that he does believe in the gods (he said his whole life of philosophy was a divine mission). What he doesn’t like is the dogmatic approach that many in Athens took, instead of resorting to their reason and rationality to determine the existence of higher deities (which is something I happen to somewhat agree with; I look around at such a complex world and see a great intelligence involved in its creation).

As for Plato, the highest up the list of his “good regime” list was an aristocracy, then a timocracy, then an oligarchy, then a democracy, and at dead last was a tyranny.

[Blind Eye Jones]

If you read Aristophanes’ The Clouds he portrays Socrates as a natural scientist in the early part of his career and it was only later that he became interest in ethics, morality and various human qualities. As a scientist Socrates questioned the gods — and it could be argued that he carried that through into his later years. That Socrates pays some kind of lips service to men’s belief in gods only shows that he was respectful of the state and had loyalty and attachments to its citizens. To deny the existence of the gods publicly would weaken the divine foundation of the state and Plato says much the same in the Republic. Men need to believe in the afterlife and in the noble beginning of the state. In the Republic myths were created to bind mens attachments. However, amongst philosophers there is a tacit agreement, a seeing of the truth — which is not always pleasant or salutary for ordinary men — that men live in caves (culture) and believe in shadows. Only a few can escape and see the sun light. Socrates greatest accuser was Aristophanes who in fact knew who he was — though as a comedian Aristophanes could say the same kinds of things as comedy and never cross the line — and saw Socrates overt blasphemy. In can also be argued that Plato’s Republic is a response to Aristophanes comedy but comedy of a different kind, in that, the Republic, because it can only exist in speech, was in fact a great perversion of nature and nature need to be tortured in order for Socrates to build the ideal state. Nature can’t support the Republic — that is until that rational dream was attempted by John Locke and Marx and the whole modern project. The moderns believe they can conquer nature through science. That science lets everybody out of the cave into a the possibility of a new utopia. But still God needs to be dead....