The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread 11

[HairOfTheDog]

The FreeRepublic Saddle Club - (very out of date) Who's Who *pics*

This is a horse chat thread where we share ideas, ask for input from other horsemen, and talk about our riding and horse-keeping. We have a lot of different kinds of riders and horses, and a lot to share. In the previous threads we have had a great time talking through lessons, training, horse lamenesses, illnesses and pregnancies... and always sharing pictures and stories.

I always have a link to this thread on my profile page, so if you have something to say and can't find the thread in latest posts… look for it there and wake the thread up!

I also have a ping list for horse threads that are of interest, and MissTargets will now be pinging everyone most mornings. Let MissTargets and/or me know if you would like to be on the ping list. As FreeRepublic is a political site, our politics and other issues will probably blend in…. There are many issues for horsemen that touch politics… land use, animal rights/abuse cases that make the news…. Legislation that might affect horse owners.

So... like the previous threads, this is intended as fun place to come and share stories, pictures, questions and chit-chat, unguided and unmoderated and that we come together here as friends. There are lots of ways of doing things and we all have our quirks, tricks and specialties that are neat to learn about.

Previous threads:

The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - thread ONE
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - Thread TWO!
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - Thread THREE!
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread FOUR
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread FIVE
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread SIX
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread SEVEN
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread EIGHT
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread NINE
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread TEN

New folk and occasional posters, jump right in and introduce yourselves, tell us about your horses, and post pictures if you've got them!

[ShakeNJake]

He looked very awkward walking because the fetlock joint was fused and could not bend anymore. If you watch the video of him walking again and imagine a normal step superimposed, you can see where he steps normally. It just looks strange to the eye because the fetlock doesn’t bend. That is what caused the “slapping” appearance. Also, the fetlock was fused in an anatomical position that facilitated standing on it. This is why it appears to be bent when in the air. I do agree with you that it was very awkward looking when he walked.

I did not see the documentary but my understanding of what I read and saw (including reports from a person who was frequently onsite visiting the horse) is that the horse came out of anesthesia in the pool in the sling, was then hoisted out of the pool via the sling after he woke up enough to stand on his feet, and then was moved via the sling back into a recovery room (may have been next to the pool). Once he was steady on his feet, he was walked from the surgical suite to his stall. At times, he was in a sling in his stall but it was not rigged to carry him from place to place, but merely to provide him the ability to lean on it to relieve his feet and remain standing.

Dr. Richardson clearly said that he “practically jogged back to his stall”. I would take the man at his word regardless of what someone portrayed in a show made after the fact. Sometimes scenes are concocted for dramatic impact while only loosely following the facts.

[AnAmericanMother]

I didn't make myself clear.

The leg wasn't "perfect" in the sense of being "as good as new". The repair was "perfect" in the sense that it held, the steel plates didn't fail or pull loose from the attachments, the bone showed regrowth, and he put weight on the leg. A bad repair would be a failure of the bone around the attachment points, infection, no regrowth (dead bone), or refusal to put weight on the leg.

The leg was stiff and ugly (and they knew it would be) because the bones around the fetlock joint were so fragmented that they had to bypass/fuse the joint. He basically had no functional fetlock, which is what caused the "slap" that you note in his step. The fetlock is the shock absorber for the lower leg.

He was never going to have a "normal" leg because of the loss of that joint. The question was whether they could get him through a recovery period so that they could bring in the mechanics/prothesis/physical therapy specialists. Sadly, the laminitis developed before they could begin working on physical therapy and strategies to regain maximum mobility.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I was just commenting on that AAM said the "repair was perfect" It was not. This program showed his leg out of the cast and him walking down the center of the barn.

I'm sure they did learn alot...and I'm sure that is a good thing. I am not questioning anyones motives for trying to fix him either. I think everyone had what was best for the horse in mind. But I believe, especially after this program (and I don't know if this program is totally truthful, I believe very little about what I get from TV), that decisions about what to do with him were being made with emotions, and IMO, that is not a good thing.

BUT my questions here are that I don't believe the public was told the exact truth of what was going on, I've never thought it, and this program made me even more suspicious about how much the horse did suffer. Your comment but as long as he wasn't suffering"...didn't some of the things we were told at the time make you wonder about that? I did, and now I'm wondering even more. Since they made it such a public thing, I think we are entitled to the truth, and there is nothing wrong with questioning, when discrepancies show up. What if you find out he did suffer, have a lot of bad days, and then this sort of thing happened again, would you want them to try again? How can responsible decisions be made if we don't have facts to base them on, rather then raw emotion? If they make this sort of thing so public, then the public should be able to voice their opinion and ask questions, but those opinions should be educated. But to get an educated opinion we need to be told the truth. If they are not going give all the facts, then don't give any.

Becky

[MissTargets]

If this was the same program on regular TV, then I saw it. At first it was canceled because of a hockey game, then rescheduled on the following Saturday. This was on a few months ago. When they showed him walking outside, I thought the horse had a very good chance. This is when they were talking about him leaving the hospital. Scenes are cut to make better production and I would tend to believe the Vet.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ok, thanks. In this program they just said the sling carried him back to his stall.

I’m just curious about finding out what was concocted and what was reality, even back when it was happening.

Having said that, I want to say, I don’t believe any of the people involved in his care were “deliberately” lying...but I think some of what they said, was again, being based on emotion rather then fact. I think they were reporting what they hoped was/would happening. And I don’t fault them for that.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The vet said even then, according to this program, that the horses chances were poor. The days they let him out to graze were the good days. How many of them were there?

Becky

[CindyDawg]

I guess it depends on what people call suffering. People and animals don’t have a right to be pain free. Recovery hurts sometimes but if pain is managed it isn’t suffering IMO. I would be curious to see his latest xrays. Anyway, what I was talking about was a depressed horse that gets worse instead of better and /or is in constant pain. I’m assuming that was where he was toward the end and they stopped. The Vets I know tend to want to save animals but are good at saying that is enough. Hopefully these guys were like that too.

[CindyDawg]

Wow. You brought up a whole new topic. Joint replacement:’)I didn’t know they were considering that.

[AnAmericanMother]

I would believe the vet, who is a well though of, highly professional leader in his field, over a TV show that is obviously planned and edited to attract viewers. Best way to attract viewers is with controversy. Even better way is to suggest that there is some sort of cover up or conspiracy.

Conspiracy theories "sell". That's why there are so many fools who believe that President Bush brought down the Twin Towers.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the inconsistencies. The producers probably suggested as much as they thought they could get away with.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I believe an honest evaluation of how much pain there is going to be should be given, then the decision be made if it’s worth it. I question how honest that evaluation was as far as what was told to the public. I just “question” it, I’m not saying we were lied to, I’m not saying we weren’t. I’d like to find out, hence my questions.

Becky

[AnAmericanMother]

I don't think they were considering that. They never got that far, the physical therapy/mechanics folks never got involved afaik.

I don't even know if there ARE any artificial fetlock joints out there. I do know that there is (or was) a stallion with a hind leg prosthesis who was able to cover a mare.

[Beaker]

my question was do you remember the news conference right after the surgery, where the vet made the comment about the horse “jogging back to his stall dragging people”.

I remember the vet saying that he practically jogged back to his stall. When I was reading articles, that's when I found out about the recovery period in the pool, and I watched a video from his second surgery where he was lifted into the pool to recover from being under.

[CindyDawg]

Some things we will never know, I guess. If I had to make a choice between who to believe...the media or the vets though... no contest.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If this same scenario were to happen again, would you think they should try again, knowing the out come of this one. That they couldn’t stop the laminitis, they couldn’t manage the pain. That the horse just wore out from it, and was miserable the last few days (the vets words, not mine).???????

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I would choose the vets to, no doubt. But the vet himself said the chances were poor. I believed him.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Thanks Beaker. I think I’ve figured out, that this program just didn’t tell the whole story (imagine that:)...they just said the sling carried him back to his stall...there was no explanation that it was still a recovery stall and not his own.

I get it now.

Becky

[CindyDawg]

They know they can repair fractures now. Did they learn anything regarding laminitis? Most horse owners won’t need to treat a horse for a broken leg but many have animals that founder. So yes, I think they should continue research on how to treat laminitis as long as the horse stays mentally healthy. I have to admit though, from what I read, that I would have probably called it quits a little sooner. I wasn’t there though.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You don’t think they can learn about laminitis from horses that just get it....they have to learn about it from horses that they KNOW are going to develop it from other causes???

I’m sorry, from what this vet said, laminitis is very painful...I would not knowingly put a horse thru that. Know beyond almost a shadow of a doubt that it’s coming.

This horse shed his whole hoof wall...you could see it in some of the film clips...can you imagine how that had to hurt, and they knew that was probably going to happen. But because of emotion they hoped it wouldn’t.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I know this is hindsight, and makes it easier.

But when the horse developed the laminitis they did decide to put him down. The owners, jockey, everyone came to say good bye. Then they changed their mind because Barbaro himself seemed so well. He was alert, and happy at that time. But he went downhill after that. Yes he had good days, but from the sounds of it, there were a lot of bad ones too. I didn’t realize how many times they had to do surgery on him. The vet himself said, every time we fixed one thing something else went wrong, and we had to fix that. Every day it was something.

It’s hindsight I know, but I would have nightmares knowing I could have put the horse down when he was happy, rather then have kept him going knowing the chances were poor, then still have to put him down but when he had gotten so miserable. That would be hard to live with.

Becky

[AnAmericanMother]

The problem with just taking the horse who happens to founder is that you don't necessarily have all the factors that were in play here.

This was a unique combination of a whole lot of factors. You had a young, vigorous, healthy horse in absolutely fit condition. You had the very best research/teaching facility in the country for orthopedic injuries. And you had owners who could afford the very best care.

That does not happen very often.

I've unfortunately had to make the decision to put down animals who were ill or severely injured. It's a very difficult call to make, and there is always an argument that you waited too long -- or didn't wait long enough. You want to give the animal a fair chance to get better, but you don't want the animal to suffer unnecessarily. Unnecessarily being the key - transient pain, even severe pain, may be worth the ultimate result. That's true in almost any surgery.

With 20/20 hindsight you can argue either position til the cows come home (or die).

Both the owners and the vet were well aware of the emotional component and the wishing component - those are present in all cases, because vets wouldn't be in that job if they didn't empathize with animals (believe me, the money ain't it!)

But, again, I'm not going to sit behind a keyboard with imperfect information and try to second-guess the best orthopedic veterinary surgeon in the country or a couple of owners who obviously loved this horse.