The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread 11

[HairOfTheDog]

The FreeRepublic Saddle Club - (very out of date) Who's Who *pics*

This is a horse chat thread where we share ideas, ask for input from other horsemen, and talk about our riding and horse-keeping. We have a lot of different kinds of riders and horses, and a lot to share. In the previous threads we have had a great time talking through lessons, training, horse lamenesses, illnesses and pregnancies... and always sharing pictures and stories.

I always have a link to this thread on my profile page, so if you have something to say and can't find the thread in latest posts… look for it there and wake the thread up!

I also have a ping list for horse threads that are of interest, and MissTargets will now be pinging everyone most mornings. Let MissTargets and/or me know if you would like to be on the ping list. As FreeRepublic is a political site, our politics and other issues will probably blend in…. There are many issues for horsemen that touch politics… land use, animal rights/abuse cases that make the news…. Legislation that might affect horse owners.

So... like the previous threads, this is intended as fun place to come and share stories, pictures, questions and chit-chat, unguided and unmoderated and that we come together here as friends. There are lots of ways of doing things and we all have our quirks, tricks and specialties that are neat to learn about.

Previous threads:

The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - thread ONE
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - Thread TWO!
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - Thread THREE!
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread FOUR
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread FIVE
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread SIX
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread SEVEN
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread EIGHT
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread NINE
The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread! - Thread TEN

New folk and occasional posters, jump right in and introduce yourselves, tell us about your horses, and post pictures if you've got them!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Well, actually, I think dogs have more advanced brain function then horses. IMO, horses “like” food, and being left alone. Dogs on the other hand I think do “like” or “dislike” things and people. Do your horses come running to you when you’ve been gone awhile, and are overjoyed to see you? Mine don’t.Becky

[HairOfTheDog]

I think they’re capable of more ‘likes’ than you give them credit for, and less than some of the people over on the horse forum give them credit for. So how’s that for riding right down the middle? ;~) And I think some are more personable than others. Bay’s different than Cyn... The Pony is different yet.

But to counter your earlier skepticism about people, I would argue that while Dressage is very hard work, and the horses can get stressed by it, because it is very mental, as Beaker says, outright abuse is not what I would suspect behind the scenes. You know, as well as anyone, that making work miserable for a horse will not work in the long run. The horse will get sour, the horse will stop working well. Dressage, perhaps more than any other horse sport, depends on long-term work. It takes years for each horse to move through the levels, you can’t cheat the foundations, and you can’t rush them faster than they can master the steps. When they look at a young prospect, it may be 12-15 years before that horse is competing at the Grand Prix level. So they have to keep it pleasant, and only those who are at least well suited for it (or like it), who can be patient and not rush or be quick to abuse, can do it and be successful at it for the long haul. Horse or rider.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Well, since everyone has disappeared here, I’m wondering if I’ve insulted or irritated some of you, and the rest is sitting back wondering, OK now what:)

If so, first I want to apologize sincerely. Mostly I was just trying to spark a good lively discussion, on what horses like, dislike, and methods of training. Things get a bit slow here, we’ve cussed and discussed just about everything, so sometimes throwing out a debatable topic can be interesting.

I do believe that asking/questioning training methods are fair questions. I wasn’t the only one that ask “how do they get horses to do that?” IMO, and I’m open minded that my opinion is wrong...the commentators comment was wrong. I don’t believe the horse “liked/enjoyed” doing what was being asked of it. I don’t believe her tail swishing was enjoyment leaking out her tail. She was beautiful and very well trained, as I’m sure the black horse is. I believe it is nieve to think that some trainers because of their desire to win won’t use harsh measures. I do believe as Beaker said, there are probably horses out there who can be trained to do this sort of thing without harsh measures. But I feel certain there are horse that can’t do it, but are pushed till as she said, their brains are fried.

As I mentioned I believe abuse is a subjective thing mostly. IOW’s training methods may seem abusive to one person but not to someone else...

But as a whole abuse was not what I was thinking about, I never said dressage horses are trained by abusive methods, or is abusive in and of itself.

We all make our horses do things they don’t want to do...does that mean we are abusive, I don’t think so. Does that mean the horse dislikes doing the things we make them do, I don’t think so, if they do things willingly does that mean they like it, I don’t think so.

It’s just, IMO, that attributing human traits to horses demeanor is not a true guide to determining what they like and what they don’t like. IMO that romantisizes horses in general, and that puts horses in danger of abuse or at the least contributes to some people handling them wrong and turning them in to misbehaving brats. I just didn’t care for the comment from the commentator. That was it.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL...we were posting at the same time:)

And BTW, the commentator also mentioned at the end of the clip, that the mare was 9.

Becky

[HairOfTheDog]

Naw - I was never insulted... I don’t worry so much about some of the emotional stuff as you do, I am OK with how much my horse likes me and his work - or sometimes doesn’t ;~) - I’ve just been over at the horse forum, and following the live news on this shooting, and didn’t realize you were over here musing about this :~)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ok then. I’m just working on not being so aggressive aggressive:)

Becky

[HairOfTheDog]

LOL :~D

[HairOfTheDog]

I don’t believe her tail swishing was enjoyment leaking out her tail.

Technically, I think I said "excess energy" not "enjoyment" per se.

[BladeRider]

Do your horses come running to you when you’ve been gone awhile, and are overjoyed to see you?

Mine do, although I think it is more curiosity and to check if I have food or not. Do you think this type of behaviour would have some affect as to whether the horse was imprinted or not?

[FrogInABlender]

What shooting?

[HairOfTheDog]

Bad shooting at Virginia Tech... check breaking news... 32 people dead and a lot of injured.

[Beaker]

I haven't been on the thread because it's been busy here at work. I wasn't offended/irritated at all. Just contributing and discussing. :-) I don't like anthropomorphizing horses to the extent that commentator did. You just can't do it, because horses aren't people and vice versa. I do believe, though, that depending on the partnership and once you've built up a level of trust, a horse will want to work for you. Oliver, for example has finally trusted me, and he goes quite well. You can tell these things because he's relaxed through his back, he plays with his bit, he yields to my hands and takes contact on his own. We just kind of click.

But I do believe that horses can grow to like(heh there's that word again) people, and yes they do look for you when you've been gone. One of the appy's at the barn always knows when her person has arrived. Oliver always come up to meet me at the gate.

And of course it's naive to think that trainers won't use harsh measures to get what they want, regardless of the discipline, and of course some do, that goes without saying. One could say that rolkur is harsh. But others say that it's a valuable training tool in the right hands, and if done in short periods it can't hurt, but it's abused and misused. However, not every dressage rider uses it, and lots are against it. I personally don't like it, and I think that it goes against every principle in dressage.

I do believe as Beaker said, there are probably horses out there who can be trained to do this sort of thing without harsh measures. But I feel certain there are horse that can’t do it, but are pushed till as she said, their brains are fried.

Dressage isn't just training the horse to do fancy moves. These horses start from the ground up, and the point of dressage is to teach the horse and rider to move in balance with one another. You'd be surprised what you can do to throw your horse off balance, and how easy it is to do. Dressage training benefits every horse and rider team, regardless of their discipline.

And yes there are horses who can't do dressage at certain levels, and if they can't, you won't see them performing at that level, that's my point. It's like asking a horse who can only jump 2 feet to jump a 4 foot grand prix course, or your average backyard trail horse to do competitive trail riding. The point of dressage is not to fry a horse's brain and teach it to dance around the ring. :-) And people that are out there to do it that way, shouldn't be doing it at all.

Again, I don't want you to think that I'm being agressive-agressive or even passive aggressive, (grin) I just want you to understand what dressage is all about, and that just because you see a grand prix dressage horse doesn't mean that harsh methods were used to get him there.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Could be...

I’d say they come more for the food tho:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I couldn’t remember exactly what you said, wasn’t trying to mislead:)...I tried to go back and find exactly what you said, but couldn’t.

I did say several times the tail swishing could have been from nothing more then the exertion of doing the exercise.

I’ll give everyone the benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Another good post Beaker. You have lots of common sense:)

Becky

[FrogInABlender]

You’re right, I was just hanging back watching the discussion. I really don’t know if horses “like” things or not, but I do think that they like certain people more than others and are more willing to perform for some than others.

And you’re right that what is considered abuse can be a very subjective thing. On the one hand you’ve got folks like the PETA people who think that even keeping animals in captivity is abuse, and on the other you’ve got people like you were talking about who will do what ever it takes to get the results they want as long as they don’t get caught. I think most of us fall squarely in the middle.

That said, and even though I don’t know a thing about dressage training, I don’t think that it would be possible to achieve the higher levels through harsh means. You can tell it in a horse’s expression or body language when they’re doing something out of avoidance. I see it in the gaited horse show ring all the time. They either have a dead look in their eyes, or a wild look, like the devil is on their backs. I didn’t see either on the gray mare. She did seem to have that extra “spark” that I guess could be construed as “liking her work”. Now whether she really did or not is anybody’s guess. I like to think that she did, but then I tend to treat my horses more as pets than you do. I’m not saying that one way is better than the other, I’m just stating my own personal preference.

So there’s my 2-cents worth. I really didn’t say anything that all the rest of you haven’t already said. But I guess I had to say it anyways.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

And I’m glad you did:), and agree with everything you said:)

Change of subject:)

I just got a call from a lady I knew years and years ago. The gist of the conversation was she has a friend looking to breed his mare, heard thru the grapevine that we still have Rock, at the time we knew her Charlie was riding him some, so she had seen him.

Any way she said this friend has a buckskin mare he wants to breed to a buckskin stud...my question...you really shouldn’t breed buckskin to buckskin, right? Don’t you run the risk of getting an albino?

Becky

[HairOfTheDog]

Hmmm... I don’t know about the color breeding issue.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It really doesn’t matter, We are not breeding outside mares. To much of a hassle.

I was just wondering about it.

Becky

[CindyDawg]

Just got back on line. The net was out all over my area. ATT, very apologetic:’) I had to go down town to both city halls anyway.
Horses liking stuff...I think horses are very good at reading people and if you are happy, they are happy. If the dance had not gone well and the rider p/o, I doubt the movement would have “seemed” so free. That’s what I liked about the white horse, anyway.
As much money as they put into these horses, I doubt they are abused though. Horses are funny. Okie will run up to the fence when he sees me. Never fails. Sarah Lee pretends not to see me. After she is out though she will walk with me without a lead rope and when I leave she stands at the gate. I watch her out of my eye and she watches until I leave and then goes and kicks another horse. Just observations but I think I can say, she would rather stay in the pasture, but once away from the girls I’m her pal. I haven’t figured out what the kick is about though:’) I don’t see it as giving characteristics but studying them. Some times I can sit for a long time just watching them. Beautiful creatures.