Dang. Missed the live thread.
Can I get on the ping list?
Posted on 10/06/2006 5:39:03 PM PDT by KevinDavis
I don't see what the problem with destroying the cylons. If mankind feels bad about it later on, they can always make some more.
Probably the same way that you have a baby with one. Reckon them as intelligent, sentient beings.
It is a science fiction programme, let's not loose our perspective here.
Is it really genocide when the humans could just more of them? Wouldn't genocide mean wiping them out forever?
Humans didn't build the 'Skinjobs', the cylons did. Humans built the 'walking Chrome Toasters'.
You really think that they'd make that mistake again?
Moral Dilema Episode...
On another issue, notice how Adama is beginning to treat Helo as if he was another son? It appears to have started with the Epiphanes episode, when Helo attempted to stop them from aborting his and Sharon's baby. i thought a bunch of Colonial Marines were about to die.
i'm waiting for the explosion that is going to happen when Capt. Agathon finally lashes out at somebody. This guy has taken all the $#!t that a person can, and kept on smiling...there does however, come a time....
With respect to moral equivalency and becomming just like your enemy, it's important to remember context. The Cylons started the war. The Cylons tried to exterminate all humans. The Cylons have been not simply murderous but cruel. They made it into an exterminate or be exterminated issue.
Humans have the ability to be murderous and cruel. We also have the choice to not be murderous and cruel. Cylons also seem to have the ability to make that choice, it is not a choice that has presented to them to make.
Sharon didn't just violate her code once. She did it a number of times.
This is the first episode that I thought Roslin acted with any sense.
The experience on New Caprica seemd to have matured her.
They are still programmed machines built by machines.
If you can place any credibility in Skinner and his ilk, so are we. Many human biological functions (such as blood sugar/insulin curves) are classic problems in feedback control systems text books.
Certain parts of that are debatable. Recalling that the story is Science fiction, remember that Sharon rebelled against programming when she took Helo in different directions than she was instructed to do on Caprica.
"Certain parts of that are debatable. Recalling that the story is Science fiction, remember that Sharon rebelled against programming when she took Helo in different directions than she was instructed to do on Caprica."
But she still forgot to tell that Brother Nevil was a cylon.
Cavil. Brother Cavil.
Any idea on who you think will be the, "Imperious Leader," in this series?
Please read this article and this article. In particulare, compare the example that Dr. Hare gives that he suggested for the movie Malice with the scene between Capria 6 and the baby in the miniseries. The problem is that almost all of the evidence in the show is that the Cylons are all psychopaths without a conscience.
What gives a human "humanity" and makes them truly trustworthy is a conscience. A human without a conscience can never really be trusted, because they lack the conscience and empathy that make normal humans consider the impact of their behavior on other. All of the evidence so far, from Caprica 6 and the baby through the occupation of New Caprica and treatment of Baltar by Caprica 6 suggest that the Cylons lack any real conscience or empathy. It's all about them.
What about Sharon? A lot of her behavior is self-centered and about what she needs. When her needs change, so does her behavior. Do you expect her to remain a good soldier if she finds out that the baby was alive and she was lied to? I don't. She's a bomb waiting to blow up, just as she was before she shot Adama. Let's not forget that she's changed her mood and mind over and over again, as the situation changes. What makes you sure tht this is the real Sharon and not just act?
But let's assume that Sharon and the Caprica that loves Baltar have some small measure of empathy and conscience. Hare and others estimate that up to 4% of all people are psychopaths, with only a fraction of those becomming serial killers and so forth. The rest become those people who use and abuse others for fun and profit and just can't be trusted. Let's flip that percentage around. Let's suppose that 4% of Cylons actually have a conscience. Can humans really put their entire future and the survival of their species at risk in the hope that either the psychopaths will leave them alone or the 4% will be able to control the other 96%? Where do you think things would have cone on New Caprica if the people hadn't left, given that the executions were starting?
In short, I think you are projecting human assumptions onto machines that aren't human (and to the credit of the writers, don't think or act quite like normal humans). Consider this quote, from the second article, "Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless." Don't assume the Cylons have a conscience because nearly everything we've seen so far suggests that they don't.
Normal Humans are not a blank slate. They come with the capacity to feel empathy, feel guilt when they wrong others, and have a visceral negative response to things they think are unfair. See the two articles on psychopaths that I listed above as well as this article which talks about why "Scientists say morality may be hardwired into our brains by evolution".
In short, if you remove the emotional response that people have toward certain moral decisions, you don't get humane decisions. You get ruthlessly efficient ones. Remove empathy and a conscience and you get decisions based on self-interest without regard for others. So unless you hardwire your machines with a consience (e.g., Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics), empathy, and a visceral sense of fairness, you won't get humane behavior. You'll get ruthlessly efficient and selfish behavior. And that's exactly how the writers are portraying the Cylons in most cases.
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