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To: Last Visible Dog
You are reviewing historic data and applying a rule to it - nothing selected these animals - it just happened.

No, in this isntance, the hawks are doing the selecting. Some hares will have alleles leaving them darker, others will have alleles leaving them lighter, and that distribution will be somewhat random. But the fact that the hawks will eat more of the dark ones is anything but random, and it's the hawks that lead to a gradual shift in allele frequencies (aka evolution). Dark hares would have a chance and white hares wouldn't be invulnerable, but over time, lighter hares will clearly be more reproductively succesful than darker hares.

Answer the question please - if Natural Selection is not random - what force/god/designer is doing the selecting?

You're still not getting it. Here, the environment is doing the selecting. In this case, the active selector are the hawks. You either survive to pass on your genes or you don't, and if you don't, you're selected out of the game.

Nothing designates a creatures ability to survive - it happens randomly.

If that were the case, then it wouldn't matter what pigment a hare's fur is -- surival rates would be roughly the same for all populations. Faster rabbits would have no edge over slower rabbits. Smarter rabbits wouldn't be better at foraging for food than dumber rabbits.

186 posted on 09/21/2006 9:37:52 AM PDT by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker
You're still not getting it.

Good luck with that! :-D

192 posted on 09/21/2006 11:31:38 AM PDT by ahayes (My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure.)
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To: Alter Kaker
No, in this isntance, the hawks are doing the selecting.

Somewhat. Hawks eat what they can - they are not selecting. The end of the process is called natural selection. The animals eat what they can but it is still random - based on random mutation some animals don't get eaten - no matter how you slice it. it is still random and no "force" is controlling it.

You're still not getting it.

I say the same thing to you. You are not getting it. Nothing is directing the selection. Random mutations mean randomly things will survive or not survive. The changes start with a random mutation and the environmental response to this mutation is random (not directed)

Here, the environment is doing the selecting.

Yes but it is still random (not directed)

Let's review:

Random - proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.

If you are claiming Natural Selection is is not random than it most has an aim, reason, or pattern - it does not.

If that were the case, then it wouldn't matter what pigment a hare's fur is -- surival rates would be roughly the same for all populations.

I think you are confused as to the meaning of the word "random"

199 posted on 09/21/2006 3:14:13 PM PDT by Last Visible Dog
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To: Alter Kaker
OK, lets sum this up into one question

You claim Natural Selection is not random

This is the definition of random:

Random - proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.

So if Natural Selection is not random, as you claim, what is the aim, reason, or pattern of Natural Selection?

200 posted on 09/21/2006 3:23:50 PM PDT by Last Visible Dog
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