Posted on 08/20/2006 5:37:25 AM PDT by Rte66
For your bookmarking assistance, this is a reference list of links to the Aug 2006 or newer Free Republic threads on the topic of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case and the possible arrest of John Mark Karr as a suspect in her murder.
We'd need a medical doctor to help by providing a professional estimate of how long the child might have survived with that head wound. My guess is only a few minutes, at best, because of the massive bleeding in her head. Her blood pressure would have dropped pretty quickly, leading to heart stoppage. In essence, she would have bled to death internally.
On the other hand, near as I can tell, all of the trauma was under the skin. I don't recall ever seeing anything that indicates there was external bleeding on her head. I don't know if that would have any bearing on the length of time her heart was able to keep pumping after the head trauma.
But I'm glad you agree about the rage killing aspect. I think it's obvious.
BTW, the ligature had to come after the head wound. The strangulation definitely would have stopped her breathing and her heart. There was massive internal bleeding from the head wound, which means her heart was still pumping for at least a short time after she suffered it. Again, a medical professional might be able to help us further understand this point, but I believe if she was hit after being strangled, there would not have been that massive internal bleeding.
Thanks. Without going back to look at the autopsy photos again (which I don't want to do), for whatever reason I see the main site of the fracture as being on the left side of the skull in my mind's eye. But I certainly could be wrong about this point.
"Literature on criminal behavior indicates that the vast majority of rage killings are perpetrated by someone known to the victim."How does someone learn Literature ?
IF he sent one! And if it weren't in a self-sealing envelope with an adhesive flap.
AbleLight, I should modify my #2,202 to you by saying I belive the head wound would have occured shortly before or during the strangulation, but not after. But again, we'd need an MD to help verify this either way.
(From John Ramsey transcript w/Lou Smit, Mike Kane, etc., June 25, 1998)
0613
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7 MIKE KANE: Did you hear anything 8 in the course of this last year and a half about 9 JonBenet's body, that someone was suggesting 10 that it was white paint? 11 JOHN RAMSEY: I unfortunately had 12 seen that in a tabloid or newspaper, briefly. 13 MIKE KANE: Have you discussed that 14 with anybody to get your insights on (MULTIPLE 15 SPEAKERS) -- 16 BRYAN MORGAN: I am not implying 17 one way or the other but (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS) no 18 discussions about what we did or didn't. 19 MIKE KANE: I understand that. 20 BRYAN MORGAN: And you didn't 21 intend it that way. 22 MIKE KANE: I am just wondering 23 what insights you have. 24 JOHN RAMSEY: That's disgustingly 25 sick and it's something that you know there is 0614 1 certain amount of information that's just very 2 difficult for me to handle, or to have. And 3 that just struck me as nauseating to think about 4 that, I didn't know much about it other than 5 just a little clip I saw in the newspaper.
to me it it looks like she was hit in the front due to the rectangle area in the front of he skull that broke loose from the rest of the skull.
and yes whoever hit her used excessive force
Exactly. A forensic pathologist worth his salt would be helpful here, too. The coroner reported NO laceration of the scalp, only bruising. I noted that in an earlier post. It means no external bleeding so there was no great loss of blood at the scene.
I agree that the head trauma occured first but I'm not willing to jump the gun and say that she was alive at the time of strangulation. Yes, I know what the coroner's report said but I frankly think the pathologist was just stating what happened to the nearest extent he could readily discern. This was a county paid coroner whose job was to determine cause of death and he's not Michael Baden or whatever. There are numerous cases in the past, one of which Baden corrected, where a county coroner didn't fully expound on crucial details. A man and woman were convicted of murder as a result of his testimony. It had initially been ruled a drug overdose. So yea, it's possible the county coroner was just a tad off.
I definitely agree on the rage aspect, but it's harder to interpret the second wound b/c we don't know the full intent of the perp. Was it to kill in anger or to convincingly deceive. I don't know.
Fatima, forgive me, but I don't understand your question. A person who reads a great deal about a wide array of subjects, including books about criminals and crime, will pick up a lot of knowledge. It will still only be a layman's level of knowledge, not a forensic or law enforcement professional's level, but it would be more extensive than the average person who isn't as widely read.
Hope that's what you were getting at.
Wish we could 'ping' a doctor!
It may well be how it happened, but we don't have enough facts to know for sure. She may not have been hit at all in a separate event, but may have struck her head while she was being strangled.
I think the autopsy photos help inform us as to the extent and probable sequence of her injuries, but do not tell us how the head wound occurred.
I see the rage not in the head wound as much as in the immense savagry of the garrotting. That was no garden-variety strangulation.
I didn't say it did. The Pull-up package that was hanging out of the cabinet just coincidentally was the same cabinet where the Swiss Army knife had been hidden. which was found near JBR's body in the wine cellar and coincidentally above the countertop where the potato knife had been put down.
They said he sent something with a snail mail-did not think of self sealing.
It covered a massive area, but it was only 1-1/4 teaspoons of blood.
Interesting. I'm not a doctor but that seems to suggest that the heart stopped quickly after the head blow, maybe within a minute or two?
Are you talking about EXTERNAL bleeding or INTERNAL?
Right-hand side, around back to front or vice versa
"but how much force would it take to crack her skull like that since she was only 6 years old?"
A LOT.
The autopsy report said it was back to front, right top of the head. The contusions in the BBB and the cortex were aligned with it. It was just under 2" wide and 8" long.
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