Patsy Ramsey, mother of JonBenet dies of ovarian cancer

Fox News | June 24, 2006 | Brytani

[Brytani]

According to Fox News, Patsy Ramsey, mother of Jonbenet Ramsey has passed away from ovarian cancer.

[paulat]

Me:...little six-year-olds wearing makeup and prancing down runways freaks me out!!

You: Right. That's your opinion, and one I disagree with.

Yup...we disagree!

Thanks for a civil discourse, however!

[Brytani]

Check this article out, it may change your mind about who did the crime.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

I'm in the camp of those who believe the Ramsey's are innocent and finding a DNA profile that doesn't match anyone in the household solidifies that for me. Though, I fully understand why people believe the parents were involved I just find the evidence says differently.

[Rte66]

You will also hear from some people who say that the bonus amount was printed on every paycheck stub of John Ramsey's all year long - and that an "intruder" could've gone through drawers and found that number somewhere.

Why a kidnapper/molester/murderer would do that and why *that* amount would be some kind of magic number for the perp are things that are never explained. Additionally, it wasn't true that the figure ever appeared on any of the stubs or that the stubs were anywhere accessible to an intruder.

[Brytani]

You're wrong about the lie detector tests and a quick search into the documents of the case will show you that.

As for your theory about the DNA, you may want to check out this article that goes into detail about the DNA evidence and other evidence being looked at in the case.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

What's interesting about this case is now investigators from the prosecutors office state on the records the Ramsey's were not involved in the murder. Now if there is any group of people who have full access to the evidence, including hold-back evidence it's them.

[Brytani]

Funny, they passed lie detector tests and asked for even more. Damn those pesky facts.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/24/se.02.html
Experts Say Ramseys Passed Lie Detector Tests

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0429ramse1.shtml
John and Patsy Ramsey went on national television Friday to say they are willing to take a lie detector test, but the test must be given by someone selected by their lawyers.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/time_11.html
On May 24, John and Patsy Ramsey underwent lie-detector tests conducted by Ed Gelb and announced that the findings had cleared them of any involvement in their daughters death. (with even more information on the link including the questions asked of the Ramseys and detailing who, when and where this test was conducted, including it's authentication)

[Rte66]

All of Lou Smit's red herrings in one place - an article from a year ago.

The DNA was partial and degraded. JonBenet's own whole blood was fresh. Unless one has an atom-smasher, how would someone go about leaving "partial" DNA? Do you have any idea how sub-microscopic that would be?

If it became partial from degradation, that means it was "old." How old? Not from that night. The fact that it was found mingled with her blood in her panties doesn't mean it came from inside her body or from a perp, since it matched what was under her fingernails.

It means it probably came from her own hands. She was still unable to clean herself properly in the bathroom - that was a known fact by the family and came out in police questioning. She would yell for others to come help her while on the toilet.

Whatever she had on her hands and under her fingernails simply got onto her privates and/or onto the crotch of her panties that way, then intermingled with the fresh blood when she was injured. There are many other sources it could have been from, other than her killer.

[EnquiringMind]

What about the note? Can it be explained away?

[Brytani]

We've gone over the handwriting analysis bit ad nauseum already on this thread. But I'll repeat it. First, it is not an exact science. Patsy could not be excluded by one expert, while an expert hired by A&E television excluded her conclusively as the writer of the note.

No investigator or criminalist would base a case on handwriting analysis. Remember, as was previously brought up on this thread, an expert authenticated the forged CBS documents.

AS for the Grand Jury, we do know what they said, they refused to indict. Or did you miss that little bit of no arrest, no trial, no indictment of the Ramseys?

[Rte66]

Those are exactly the private self-sponsored polygraph tests I was talking about. Four years after the murder! They had *refused* for four years! I was not *wrong* about that.

And they lied about the test you linked to stories about. I watched the whole thing. They never let the *first* polygrapher talk about Patsy's inconclusives. They finally admitted that there was a "first" one before Gelb, but said he couldn't be there that day because he was having hand surgery.

And no one ever heard from him again. His name was Jerry and then something like Toriello for the last name.

[Rte66]

How do you know they "refused" to indict? If they had "refused to indict," a report was required to be issued.

No report was issued.

[goron]

Here's a Statement Analysis of the Ransom Note:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

[WLR]

You would be irresponsible to the rest of your family and to your child the victim in this case if you fail to assert your constitutionally protected rights and avail yourself of council.

The possibility that one might sit in prison falsely convicted of a crime is real. Two L.A. black men first sat on death row and then had their sentences commuted to life without out the possibility of parole. 10 years into their sentence a Detective in the case which involved the murder of Peace Officer made a dying declaration stating he and others just chose a couple of not so nice guys and falsified a case against them resulting in their conviction. (They have been released).

How would one feel having tried to "cooperate" with "authorities" only to sit in prison for a loved ones murder conviction while the guilty party remains at large.

To the degree possible while protecting the rights of your family members cooperate. But never give up what few protections and rights you have because someone "wants you to" or based upon the ever silly argument "if you are innocent you have nothing to hide". Which is an attempt to automatically imply culpability if you assert your rights or the rights of your family members.



W

[goron]

Perhaps Mother walked in on JonBenet and someone else in a sexual act and went into an uncontrolled rage that resulted in a fatal injury to the child. I am not judging, so this is pure speculation - but would explain the 'staging' of the body, the change in pajamas, and many other anomolies.

quote from Vanity Fair:

"...Dr. Richard Krugman, a specialist in child abuse brought in as a consultant by Hunter's office says that there was a vaginal abrasion, which is a sign of trauma(but), it is not a sign of sexual abuse, necessarily"

"Dr. Cyril Wech, a wellknown forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors has seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested."

"The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds."

[OldFriend]

The parents admitted to hearing nothing at all that night.

[hunter112]

Clearly, if nobody in the Ramsey family did this, or covered it up, then Patsy's turning her daughter into a six year old whore wanna-be attracted the killer. For that alone, she should burn in hell.

I sincerely hope that we get past the "beauty pageant" mentality that turns women into sexual objects, and turns men into leering perverts.

[MizSterious]

Figures.

[MAWG]

" Mother walked in on ....... went into an uncontrollable rage that resulted in a fatal injury to the child."

Per the Autopsy Report, Death was due to asphyxia, specifically a garot tied around her neck and twisted from behind. She was alive when strangled, we know this because of the petechial hemorrahages to the eyes. The fracture to her skull was POST MORTEM, after she was strangled. It did not cause her death. It was not discovered, per the Autopsy Report, until after her skull cap was removed. There was no evidence of external bleeding from this injury. I believe it was a coup des gras delivered by the killer for obvious reasons. There was nothing accidental about this horrible death.

[Brytani]

Let's see, they didn't indict, they didn't charge the Ramsey's, they didn't issue an arrest warrant for either of them, they didn't issue any arrest warrants for anyone in the case.

The prosecution asked them to indict (reason for a Grand Jury proceding) therefore, the grand jury refused to indict. Simple logic.

[Tall_Texan]

I'd have to agree but I wouldn't be quick to connect "Didn't indict" to "not guilty". With the bungled police work and contamination of the crime scene, the GJ may have found that there wasn't enough evidence that pointed to either as the actual killer. Even on this thread there are definitely some in a "Patsy did it" position, some in a "John did it" position and some in a "Burke did it" position. The problem is that with all three represented by the same counsel and agreed on a defense strategy, it can be hard to pinpoint who played what roles with enough certainty to indict.

And, even with all I've read and heard about this case, there are parts to this that don't make sense. There are some aspects I just can't picture a parent doing to their own child even to cover up an accidental death and there are some aspects I can't picture an outside molestor/rapist doing without taking unnecessary risks of getting caught or leaving clues. You either have to believe that the family are monsters who are covering up the murder of their own daughter or the killer is some unknown molester/rapist who made some frightfully stupid choices and yet managed to disappear with barely a trace.

I can see how a grand jury can be conflicted enough not to indict.

[Protect the Bill of Rights]

I believe it was a coup des gras delivered by the killer for obvious reasons.

As I said earlier, my memory is foggy on the case, it has been so long since I have read anything about it. What you say makes sense.

I am the first to say I am no expert, but sometimes things are obvious even to the non-experts.

If someone killed their child in a rage of anger or passion or for whatever reason,I would imagine that when the child drew her last breath, the energy from the rage would have been expended.

At that point, the murderer would go into the "what have I done" mode. When that person reaslizes the consequences of what they did, they may stage the body in an attempt to divert suspicion.

I have heard these stagings are done in a way that suggests it was done by a loved one (a contradiction, I know). Fracturing a skull post-mortem does not fit the bill.

It is not easy to fracture a skull, it would take alot of force. Nothing I have seen or read suggests that anyone in that family could be so cold as to kill JonBenet and then after she is dead, fracture her skull in an attempt to avoid detection.