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Posted on 06/19/2006 8:46:45 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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Back to my post 3679.
My questions for discussion is:
Do you all think horses can develop an attitude towards how long they are worked? Would that make a difference?
And, if so, how would/can you go about breaking an attitude of a horse that is set on working a shorter period of time then you need them too?
Becky
Sorry for so many posts on this topic, but I keep thinking of things I want to add:)
IMO:) these horses that are set on short work outs, will/do go for longer periods "occasionally" with no problem. Is what I'm thinking is, in part, Harleys problem, (and I hate saying he has a problem because he is such a good good horse, it's not really a "problem", he's not doing anything "bad" just a tiny lack of willingness, I just don't want to make it a problem, am I making sense, or just seeing ghosts where there are none) is the longer periods have gotten to be more then ocassionally. He's figuring out it's the norm now, and maybe protesting a bit.
Becky
The reason I asked about the Azoturia, is that you let him rest for a few days, after days of hard work. Horses can tie up if they are fed the same amount of feed on "off" days as working days. I was just concerned about him. Could have led to those back soreness problems. It was a common aliment in draft horses that had a Sunday off, after working the fields. Hence the name "Monday Morning Sickness"
Good morning :~) Read through over coffee... I slept in and only just now got horses fed :~\
I don't know whether you're seeing symptoms or ghosts, but you're seeing something you have to work through with him, and if he's not lame, then it seems like the solution is the same whether it's mental or physical tiredness.
You're working him ALOT. More than most horses work. He might be just tired - either physically or mentally, on those long rides, he may be hot, he may just have days where he's just not into it.... he may not ever be Belle.
I've seen horses pass those emotional quitting points. Usually, though, trail horses don't have that choice. They aren't at an arena that's always the same distance from the barn. In my experience, horses don't decide to quit a few miles from home, they try to get home. They have to get home before they'll try to quit, and then might protest if you turned around to head out again. I might suspect it was just temper if you pass a point on trail where he knows there's a shorter way home and you choose to go around the long way. Is that the case?
It might also be a case of boredom, that new trails might fix... or give him some reward or change of pace or something he likes, a couple hours out. I'm not one to think giving him things to look forward to... even looking forward to home ahead, is a bad thing. It might give him the oomph he needs on the second half if he thinks by giving it a little more effort (I don't mean running home, I mean really walking out) he gets a good rubdown and turned out sooner.
"Monday Morning Sickness" as I know of is a severe tie-up... you can't miss it. They literally cannot move. The little paint mare you've seen me on in pictures did it - once. Also saw a horse on trail that was tied up.
Vet said it was horses with a lot of muscle mass (QH types, drafts) that were rested, and then worked hard. The pain was actual breakdown and death of muscle tissue. Beyond the physical tie up as a symptom, which was only cured with some vet attention (I think Banamine) She peed a very dark brown.
When I described the horse on trail to my vet and asked what I could carry to help out in those situations, he said Bute or Banamine, and we settled on Banamine for my emergency kit because it would also help a colicky horse if we came across that... a two-fer-one.
Follow up question...
Do you have him on the higher-power of the feed formulas? I don't know the names of the Purina feeds, but they have an 'active hard working' formula and more of a 'maintenance' formula.
Maybe his fuel is actually pooping out on him, and a break, a tube of elecrolytes, some sugar or calories, a drink, something, might give him a second wind.
Just food for thought...
I have a monitor. I hardly ever use it any more, and I don't really know why I bought it in the first place, it was an impulse buy at Equitana one year, but they're kinda nice to have. The brains of it is about an inch wide and 4 or 5 inches long and has detachable electrodes on each end with about 3ft leads. You put one under the saddle pad, right behind the shoulder blade and the other one goes under the girth right behind the elbow. Both of them go on the left side. The base unit has it's own little bag with a clip on each end that attach to the pommel of the saddle. The display unit is a watch that is connected to the base by RF. It will pick up anywhere within about a 10ft radius of the horse. I think I paid about $150 for it 6 or 8 years ago. I had intended to get more into CTR but it just never happened. I just recently got new batteries put in it and was going to start putting on Bob, just to see what his base rate was and what his recovery times might be but I've got to get some new velcro for the girth part. I would think that somebody who's as serious as you are about your conditioning would really get some good use out of one and would really enjoy it.
Cool! You get some of the neatest pictures! The pics of Cyn and the dog are really cool too.
I've wondered that too about the same trails....I try to go different ways everytime, but it's still the same trails...and once again I'm comparing him to Belle...Belle was the same no matter what.
But, you're right...when I've taken him to new places or to a ride, his pace is faster with no urging.
Becky
I think they definately do and I think your examples are right on the money but I'm not sure how you'd go about resetting their 'work meter' either. I guess I would just try to vary the routine, pretty much like you're doing. Like you say, some horses just have more drive than others.
Yep, that is part of what I'm seeing now, that I didn't use too.
I'm not one to think giving him things to look forward to... even looking forward to home ahead, is a bad thing. It might give him the oomph he needs on the second half if he thinks by giving it a little more effort (I don't mean running home, I mean really walking out) he gets a good rubdown and turned out sooner.
On this issue, I've always just been overly concerned about making a barn sour horse. I use to not have the confidence in my riding ability to deal with a problem, and we had a barn sour horse once, that would take off to go home, and was very difficult to get him to leave the place. I imagine now I would be more able to deal with it, but I've just never wanted to test it, so continue to make coming home not the best part of the ride. I do stop out on the trail at times and let one graze, or stand in the creek to cool, hoping this makes going out more pleasant, something to look forward too when out.
Rusty use to be the worlds worse about just being out and stopping. I think because I was always worried about him, for a while I would let him thinking he NEEDED to stop. It got so bad tho, that I finally figured out he was doing it because I let him...I just about had him broke of it when I sold him. So, I do think they will quit even if they aren't home.
Becky
No, I do not have him on a higher power feed formula...I've wondered about that too. And again, I'm comparing to Belle:), she never needed it...
I did buy a supplement before my last ride that was suppose to give more energy. You feed it when you were competeing. The thing is, I think Harley is a bit overweight as it is, and 1lb of this stuff is equivelant to 4lbs of regular feed...
Since I'm trying to get a bit of weight off him, it seemed to defeat the purpose.
What do you think? I agree that could be the problem he seems to be gassing out....
Becky
Well varying the routine here at home is about all i can do. And I need to depend on that the extra adrenaline he has at a ride will carry him thru. It has so far. At the last ride, he actually seemed to have more energy at check out then he did at check in, and he was sore....go figure:)
I do know I worry to much:)
I'm not really all that worried either. I think it's just noticing the difference in horses...He's the first one I've really had the chance to do this on since Belle. His heart just may not be quit what hers was, other then (thank goodness), when he is at a competition.
Becky
sigh, I feel like sometimes is all I do is gripe about the poor guy...I don't mean it that way at all, he IS the best horse I've ever owned, It's mostly just worry, that I don't want anything to go wrong with him, especially because I've done something wrong....It seems like the more you know about horses the less you know about them...I didn't know anything when I had Belle...LOL...hell, maybe that's why things went wrong with her:)
Becky
Lets see a current pic of Harley... I can't believe he could be overweight, unless it's some temporary weight from his recent time off. I think as much as you're working, any fat he's got will come off of him no matter what you feed him. I think perhaps bump him up to the higher energy feed... Or ease him into it by perhaps feeding that for the morning ration and the maintenance stuff for the other meals.
And... know that it might make him hotter to trot, and embrace it. I think you are enough rider to handle it.
My instinct would be to embrace enthusiasm from him whenever and wherever you find it. Not bad behavior, just let him enjoy being energetic if he offers it. If he starts out hot, let him go a little, if he wants to hurry a little on the way home, use it to your advantage, perhaps drive him into the bit with your leg a little and get him to really engage with his rear end. See if you can get him to do a little dressage, but let him give you that energy in a way you like.
It's possible, I'm guessing from the way you've talked about your methodology, and I might be wrong, that you have a tendency to try to make him be even and quiet and metered all the time, and while that's a typical QH owner goal, it might be making him dull because there's no reward for energy. Competitive horses have a little fire in their belly. They go because the rider asks, but they get their own rush out of going too. And perhaps stop thinking of rides as amounts of time, and think of them as distance. I know yours is not a race, but it is a distance. The faster you can soundly cover it, the faster should be his reward at the end.
Anyway, that's the way my personality would try to handle his doldrums.
Heh - I just asked for a pic, and you were out taking them :~)
You worry because you're trying to push him to the next level, and it's not easy... He's not just a pleasure horse, so you have concerns and issues and decisions that come into play. Managing exactly how much an athlete should be eating, moving or resting is a constant challenge, that's why racehorses have people that do just that full time, while other people just ride them :~)
He sure looks good, but he still looks pretty hefty too. The only way I know of to take weight off is to cut back more on the feed, but then his stamina is probably going to drop too, so you're kinda caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't know if going with less of a more high-powered feed would accomplish what you want or not. I would have thought that at the level of excercise that he's doing that he would be really lean. I know you said you had cut him down to 12lbs of the Horsechow already, but you might try dropping down to 10 and see what that does to him. Then increase the feed back when he gets to the level that you want. But I'm sure you know more about horse nutrition than me. I wonder if there's anybody at Purina that you could e-mail or call with questions like that. Did you happen to get that Purina Reps name who gave the seminar on horse nutrition that you went to?
Guilty as charged:). Might be something to what you're saying...I'll give it a try.
Becky
Good luck, hope you can snap him out of it mentally and physically :~)
When's the ride again?
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