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To: MACVSOG68
TOPHER posted:

As for the literal aspect of the gospel writings, those have stood the test of time.

MACVSOG68 Responded:

Does that include abortion?

The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles does address abortion. As for Jesus talking about abortion, it was a mute point 2,000 years ago. It was a mute point because ANY GOOD JEWISH RABBI KNEW 2000 years ago that ABORTION was murder... So if Jesus were to discuss that, He might also iterate that THAT THOU SHALT NOT KILL - which there would have been no point.

He may have dealt with it indirectly with the case of the woman caught in the act of Adultery. She was going to be stoned to death, and He intervened. Maybe she was pregnant, and Jesus wanted that child to live.

There are other cases in the early Church that point that even the PAGANS, the Romans, valued the life of the UNBORN CHILD. In the case of Perpetua and Felicity, one was pregnant, and could not be executed until after she gave birth. So Felicity was spared until after she gave birth, and she was martyred later than Perpetua.

Even the PAGAN Romans knew that the unborn child must not be hurt. However, they believed that if the child, once born, had birth defects, they would take it out into the woods so that it would be devoured by wild animals. However, they refrained from killing the children themselves.

The Didache is a fairly recent academic discovery. The first complete set was found around 1880.

The original is believed to be written around 70AD -- about the time of the writing of the early Gospels.

If you go back to Rachel mourning that she had no children or many other figures in the Old Testament, the life of the child was cherished by the Jewish family.

Exodus 2:22 may be controversial today, but at the time, it was clear - injure a pregnant woman and she loses her life or that of the baby, then you must also suffer death -- for costing the life of the child or the woman. And it was only if people were fighting - not trying to directly injure the woman, that this was true.

I imagine if one tried to kill a pregnant woman, and though she and her baby was unharmed, the Jews in the Old Testament might have chosen to stone such a person to death.

That was the penalty, for example, for a homosexual act.

The person caught involved in such an act was stoned.

I had someone who was raised Jewish who is an expert on Hebrew and Greek explain that passage and about abortion in the Old Testament.

It just was not done.

The Didache or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles brought up this issue -- because they were dealing with non-Jewish people with non-Jewish beliefs.

Jesus did not leave ancient Israel, and therefore did not have to explain this to the Chosen people. Nor did He have to explain that Homosexuality was forbidden by Jewish Law.

A Jewish cemetary will only the following to be buried there: human remains, the remains of an unborn child, and sacred books of the religious faith.

If it was not considered a human life, then the unborn would not be allowed to be buried in a Jewish cemetary.

Therefore, the commandment of Thou Shall Not Kill is all that is needed to say to a truly Orthodox Jewish person, in terms of abortion.

The Roman Catholic Church has not changed over 2,000 years. It forbade abortion with the Didache, as certainly Peter was one of the Twelve Apostles and considered the first Pope.

It was not until 500 years later that the Didache was discarded as not being inspired teaching, but the principles of homosexuality being wrong and abortion were still a part of the Churches than as it is now.

In terms of any Christian Churches breaking with the 2000 year old tradition, in the 1920's or 1930's, many Protestant Churches started to allow birth control. Before that time, birth control was considered against their church teachings.

The Roman Catholic Church has never wavered on abortion, homosexuality or birth control, though there have been dissident bishops in the Church.

So the teaching about abortion pre-dates Moses and really goes back to Rachel mourning that she is barren.

Not having children was considered a curse to the Jewish people in the Old Testament. Having many, many children was considered a great blessing from God.

My source on this Dr. Paul Schenck, as well as others.

Abortion was wrong for the Jews in the time of Jesus. Since the Jewish population of the world was decimated by Adolf Hitler, some of the traditions may have been broken by the Holocaust. But basically, a good conservative Jew knows that abortion and homosexuality are wrong, though you can find liberal Rabbis and liberal Jews that might say abortion is okay today. It was not 2000 years ago, that is a given.

Some Protestant Churches have wavered on the points of Abortion and Homosexuality. The Roman Catholic Church, with over one billion members does not...

48 posted on 05/15/2006 2:57:40 PM PDT by topher (Let us return to old-fashioned morality - morality that has stood the test of time...)
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To: topher
The Roman Catholic Church has never wavered on abortion, homosexuality or birth control, though there have been dissident bishops in the Church.

Would it surprise you to know that St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Jerome, Pope Innocent III, Pope Gregory IX, and others considered abortion murder only after "animation"? And that for about 1200 years, most of the Church accepted the concept that until the act of "ensoulment" took place, which was defined by Augustine as after the body is formed, and later amended to animation, or when a woman feels the fetus move, no murder could exist. Not all popes during that time were in agreement, but until Pius IX issued a letter setting the record straight....that the fetus is a human from the time of conception, it was simply not Church dogma. Interestingly, I don't believe the Greek Orthodox ever bought into that. I believe they always considered abortion as murder at any stage.

49 posted on 05/15/2006 3:26:19 PM PDT by MACVSOG68
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