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To: sfRummygirl
Christophobia is a very strange thing, I am learning.

So is using Christ to promote an agenda which is less than Christ-like....

THANK GOD FOR KRAUTHAMMER

From Andrew Sullivan's site...."Charles Krauthammer has never written a dumb column, to my knowledge. Even on emotional subjects such as civil marriage, he brings to the debate a calm reasoning that wins the respect of his opponents as well as his supporters. And that is also why his searing criticism of Mel Gibson's inflammatory and idiosyncratic version of the Passion is so helpful.

I'm tired of people believing that Gibson is representing Catholicism. He isn't. He is a rebel against Catholicism, specifically the reformed, open, repentant Catholicism of the Second Vatican Council.

Gibson doesn't recognize the authority of the current Pope; he doesn't recognize the current mass - the central ritual of Catholics across the world. People are mistaken in believing that he merely prefers the Latin mass; he doesn't. He favors the Tridentine mass, a relic.

He believes that all non-Catholics are going to hell, another heresy.

He is clearly and palpably anti-Semitic. His movie is an act of aggression against Jews, and, as such, is an act of aggression against Catholicism and the current Pope's heroic efforts to confront the shameful history of the Church with regard to the Jewish people.

Charles notes how Satan walks and lives and breathes among the Jews in the movie.

He doesn't mention that young Jewish children actually turn into demons at one point in the movie, a device that only students of medieval anti-Semitism would notice. In fact, one reason that today's viewers do not notice the hatred of Jews in the movie is because, mercifuly, they are not familiar with the medieval tropes that signal evil and that Gibson trafficks in. Gibson knows.

And he knows how his movie will play in those parts of the world where anti-Semitic tropes are still recognized. Notice I am not accusing people of good faith who have found inspiration in the story portraayed in this movie of being anti-Semitic.

I'm sure that many if not almost all of that devition is genuine and not motivated by anything but spiritual hope and reflection.

But that cannot disguise the malice that lies beneath. And that Gibson would use the message of Christ to advance it is what makes it doubly unforgivable."

376 posted on 03/07/2004 2:56:31 PM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: veronica
The problem is that I saw the movie, I am agnostic, and I found all of Krauthammer and Sullivan's accusations to be utterly fraudulent.

Qwinn
378 posted on 03/07/2004 3:07:38 PM PST by Qwinn
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To: veronica
Charles notes how Satan walks and lives and breathes among the Jews in the movie. He doesn't mention that young Jewish children actually turn into demons at one point in the movie, a device that only students of medieval anti-Semitism would notice. In fact, one reason that today's viewers do not notice the hatred of Jews in the movie is because, mercifuly, they are not familiar with the medieval tropes that signal evil and that Gibson trafficks in. Gibson knows.

I saw the movie, and came away with a very different interpretation: that the conflict was not "The Jews" versus Jesus, but Satan versus Jesus. That what was happening was not a result of "evil Jews", but of particular Jews being manipulated by an evil force. That evil can take human form and walk among us.

The Christians in the audience did not interpret that scene as Jewish children being demons -- they interpreted it as demons being able to assume any disguise, no matter how initially innocent-looking. That was the message Gibson was trying to convey

409 posted on 03/07/2004 5:36:03 PM PST by SauronOfMordor (No anchovies!)
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To: veronica
Gibson .... favors the Tridentine mass, a relic.......... He believes that all non-Catholics are going to hell, another heresy. ............. He is clearly and palpably anti-Semitic. His movie is an act of aggression against Jews, and, as such, is an act of aggression against Catholicism ........... Charles notes how Satan walks and lives and breathes among the Jews in the movie.......... He doesn't mention that young Jewish children actually turn into demons at one point in the movie, a device that only students of medieval anti-Semitism would notice.

Veronica, please see my Post 345.

Is this another instance of two vastly different ancestral cultures looking at the same thing and coming to totally opposite conclusions?

In every such article, vitriol is directed at Gibson and categorical statements and innuendoes are thrown out.

"Gibson thinks every non-Catholic is going to hell.".......I have no idea what he believes and I have never heard him say that. Can a link be provided to document such an accusation?

"Gibson...favors the Tridentine Mass, a relic."........Ummmm, sounds ominous. I wonder what evil rite the Tridentine Mass is? Let's see. According to the link, it's a Mass dating back to the early Church in the 6th Century, codified in the 16th Century and, in 1988, Pope John Paul II, in the instruction Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, stated that there was nothing wrong with attending such a Mass. Yep, sounds pretty bad. Just like the politician that accused his opponent of ambulating right in front of a 13 year old girl.

"He is clearly and palpably anti-Semitic. His movie is an act of aggression against Jews".......Based on what? On the fact that Passion Plays in 19th Century Czarist Russia had a very deliberate "Jews killed Christ" message which translates into the belief that any dramatization of the Passion by 21st Century American Christians have a deliberate "Jews killed Christ" message?

"Charles notes how Satan walks and lives and breathes among the Jews in the movie".......Well that's a good one. The American Christians see Satan walking in a crowd in a city and they think, "Satan walks upon the Earth and he could be right next to us."

It's a crowd in Jerusalem almost 2000 years ago. Except for the Romans, everyone there from Jesus, to Mary to the Apostles to Caiphas to the Pharisees to Caipha's rent-a-mob is Jewish. Who else is supposed to form a crowd in Jerusalem 2000 years ago? Scandinavian Vikings?

What was the message in "Faust"?......That Satan walks and lives and breathes among the Germans?

What was the message in "Damned Yankees"?......That Satan walks and lives and breathes among those who are not New York Yankees fans?

"He doesn't mention that young Jewish children actually turn into demons at one point in the movie".......In one interview I saw, Gibson commented that he wanted to show Satan can disguise himself as even an innocent thing and what could be more innocent than a child. The adjective "Jewish" was never brought up.

Again, if you are going to portray "children" in a movie set in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, should you cast Norwegian children?

A Google Search of "Jewish children, demons" yields no dark secrets except some interesting facts about Jewish demon superstitions.

Without the perception, real or created, of anti-Black racism in America, Al Sharpton would be a nobody.

Without the perception, real or created, of anti-Semitism in America, Abe Foxman would be out of a job paying over $400,000 per annum.

The "Jews Killed Christ" dogma that was an intentional part of the anti-Semitic propaganda of 19th Century Czarist Russia is not a part of American Christian tradition. The American Christian believes that his own personal sins killed Christ. The American Christian does not believe that Caiphas and his rent-a-mob portray the entire Jewish people. They are merely the "Bad Guys in Authority" that are necessary in every such drama.

The "Jews Killed Christ" Eastern European libel would not have ever occurred to the millions of American Christians flocking to see this movie.

However, thanks to the Abe Foxman's of America, the Eastern European "Jews Killed Christ" libel has been taken out of it's well deserved obscurity and given more coast to coast and world-wide mass media publicity than that the authors of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" could ever have dreamed of.

412 posted on 03/07/2004 5:54:02 PM PST by Polybius
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