'Passion' Needs Postscript

ADL ^ | Feb 3rd 2004 | By Abraham H. Foxman and Rabbi Granatoor

[exmarine]

Never mind what happened 2000 years ago. Today, I have many Jewish friends who I know damn sure had nothing to do with Christ’s death 2000 years ago. I am sure my own great grand parent could have been Jewish, and could have participated in sentensing Jesus, but who cares. Jesus ACCEPTED DEATH TO SAVE US! After I see this movie, and so are millions of other Christians, we will all think about the suffering of our lord on the cross TO SAVE US. No one is going to say; hey 2000 years ago some Jews killed this Jew Messiah!

Who is saying that besides the ADL? Historical persecution is NO EXCUSE for their Gibson bashing. They have no basis. Jews have NEVER been persecuted in America. This is the kindest nation the jews have ever known, and now some of them (e.g. ADL) are trying to twist things. Meanwhile, jews discriminate against Christians as I have pointed out - in America!

It is paranoid and borderline retarded to keep worrying about a movie in a land that is so proud to be the beacon of the freedom of opinion, press, and expression. Stop the hostility towards Mel Gibson, and let him be free to make whatever movie he wants. The market will judge if it is good or bad.

Exactly. The ADL is either paranoid or hate-filled or both. It's a free country and Gibson paid his own money, and there is ZERO evidence that Gibson is anti-semitic and the movie is based solely on the New Testament (the ADL thinks the NT is anti-semitic!!)

[SJackson]

I know, why'd you give it away, the lawyer comments were fun.

He did a great job for JLo, Denzel Washington too. Mel's smart to hire him to promote the Passion.

[SJackson]

Gibson sent FOXMAN a compassionate letter like friend to friend regarding his concerns and FOXMAN sends him a letter totally opposite, Did ICON cc: There Lawyers?

Heck, I'd be willing to bet the "ADLs layer", Alan Nierob, wrote it for Mel.

[exmarine]

Foxman is the same guy who said that Billy Graham was anti-semitic!! Billy Graham! This guy is a slanderer and has no credibility at all.

[philosofy123]

Thank you very much for your reply. I may have missed your original point.

[missyme]

ADL had been conversing with his lawyers, this man who is the PR so what? FOXMAN's letter to Gibson was un-called for he wants to change the movie and he has no right!

[rmlew]

You know The BIBLE was written and inspired by men obviously...G-d is a spirit we both agree on that I'm sure.
God dictated the Law to Moses. Everything else was divinely inspired.

Sure we have some ancient sites or some ancient writings, but if your looking for solid proof? isn't that questioning G-d?
No. Inspiration and authorship are different. Personally, I find the syncratic nature of the Bible reassuring. It shows its importance over time.

If I did not have Jesus in my life the Holy Bible for me would just be a big book of stories...
If that works for you, I am happy for you.

[SJackson]

ADL had been conversing with his lawyers, this man who is the PR so what? FOXMAN's letter to Gibson was un-called for he wants to change the movie and he has no right!

Foxman's a jerk. But you should stop frothing at the mouth and take the time to get your facts straight. Criticizing Foxman for copying in Mel's publicity agent is stupid

[rmlew]

I wrote:
"1. The Gospels were not written during the events. They were written latter [sic]."
Dataman responsed
Show me a history of WWII that was written during the events. Your point is pointless
We have diaries, and film from World War II.
Next

"2. As any writter [sic], Jesus's disciples wrote from a perspective of assumed knowledge."
Another pointless point. Name one person in the history of the world who did not have a perspective of assumed knowedge.
Exactly, all people do.
I put the Gospels in the CONTEXT of their historical time and the working knowledge of religious laws of the writers.
That is why I support Gibson making the movie and having a postscript to put the events in perspective.

[missyme]

And if I asked you to PROVE:

The Ten Commandments was given to MOSES by G-D What would your proof be? As another poster has been writing stating in a court of Law we would never be able to prove collectively that the Pharisee's were involoved in the arrest of Jesus, what would you say your proof would be that the TEN COMMANDMENTS are the divine word of G-d?

[af_vet_1981]

FOXMAN IS MIXING UP CHRISTIANITY WITH ISLAM....

What could possibly prompt him to do something like that ?

All the posters here are FULL OF LOVE ...

Can't you just FEEL THE LOVE ...

I figured the CAPS must do something ...

Clifford's Tower -- Massacre in York, England (1190): "The site of Clifford's Tower, the keep of York's medieval castle, still bears witness to the most horrifying event in the history of English Jewry. On the night of 16 March 1190, the feast of Shabbat ha-Gadol, the small Jewish community of York was gathered together for protection inside the tower. Rather than perish at the hands of the violent mob that awaited them outside, many of the Jews took their own lives; others died in the flames they had lit, and those who finally surrendered were massacred and murdered." The Encyclopedia notes that the Crusades were a "bitter and prolonged ordeal" for the Jews of Europe; it was in this context that the massacre at York occurred in 1190: . . . The ignorant mobs were incited by the leaders of the Crusades to pillage and massacre whole Jewish communities. The cry was: "Before attempting to revenge ourselves upon the Moslem unbelievers, let us first revenge ourselves upon the 'killers of Christ' living in our midst!" Thousands of Jews perished, and entire Jewish communities were wiped out. To this day, the Jewish liturgy contains prayers commemorating the martyrs of that dreadful period. (p. 101)

[rmlew]

"1. The Gospels were not written during the events. They were written latter. [sic]"
1. How do you know that? Was the art of note-taking only invented recently? (Hint: think "no")
Read all the Gospels and make a timeline for each one. There are inconsistencies. Not every event is mentioned by each disciple.

2. Can you name any event, the history of which was not written later than the event itself? (Clue: 2 seconds later is still "later")
Any filmed event.

"2. As any writter, Jesus's disciples wrote from a perspective of assumed knowledge. In their case, they were writting with a knowledge of Jewish law and custom, not held by the average Christian (or even Jew) today."
The relevance being...? They wrote what they heard people say. Are you saying mobs never say insane things?
Of course they do. However, if the mob was insane and making comments not backed up by the Law, then the blood-guilt has no meaning.
As I said, context matters. The average viewer will not know that such blood curses are not legitimate.

"Reread my comments. I have done no such thing. Calling a recollection 10% innacccurate, does not negate 90%."
Not quite apposite. You dismissed the record, for which you have as of yet not provided one rational reason that will stand up to examination.
There are other recollections of the trial that do not match this one. Go read the other Gospels.

"If Jews are not monolithic, then the mob had no right or reason to proclaim a blood curse. My whole point is that Jews like all peoples are not monolithic, which is a reason why we never support blood-curses!"
The whole point is that they said what they said. The report is a report.
Exactly. It is "a report", not the only report.

Now, if you're looking for someone to defend the rationality of their screams and chants, or to assign current guilt to anyone on the basis of what that particular mob said, you'll have to find someone else.
This is what I mean by context.

My point (or one of them) is simply that no one has the right to change history because he doesn't like it.
I am questioning one perspective not history.

[rmlew]

The ADL is full of anti-religious bigots.

[af_vet_1981]

At least Gibson left this part out: Matt. 27:51 "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;..." That means more to me concerning Judaism then the genetic make up of the angry mob.

Gibson left out this part too ...

• Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
• In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
• In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
• For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
• Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
• And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
• Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
• Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
• As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
• Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
• Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
• Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
• Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

[missyme]

And AMERICAN CHRISTIANS never allowed the persecution of JEWS in this wonderful country and AMERICAN CHRISTAINS fought the NAZIS to free the JEWS and AMERICAN CHRISTIANS support Israel and AMERICAN CHRISTIANS are fighting TERRORISM

And American Christians want to see "THE Passion of Christ" without it being labeled Anti-Semetic by FOXMAN

[BibChr]

You need to listen to yourself. You are sounding sillier and sillier. Seriously: what would you lose if you just dealt with the facts?

Inconsistencies. Name one of the records that says they DIDN'T say that. Thirty-five different accounts of the same even can easily ALL be accurate.

"Any filmed event." Gosh, that you feel driven to say this is sad. Can you name many "filed events" from two millennia ago?

No basis in law for blood-guilt for that crowd? Have you read the Torah, recently? Can you recall anything in it about bearing false witness, condemning the innocent, and joining hands to do evil? (Hint: I have, and I can — and I'm a Gentile!)

And to the rest: it is indeed a report... and as such, it is one more than you have to the contrary.

Accept it.

Now the issue is, what do you do with their statement, and with their treatment of Jesus the Messiah? Agree, or disagree?

That's your real issue.

Dan

[missyme]

Here you mised this one:

The Suffering and Exaltation of the Messiah
Prophecy: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him-
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness-
15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many, and made
intercession for the transgressors.

[af_vet_1981]

And AMERICAN CHRISTIANS never allowed the persecution of JEWS in this wonderful country and AMERICAN CHRISTAINS fought the NAZIS to free the JEWS and AMERICAN CHRISTIANS support Israel and AMERICAN CHRISTIANS are fighting TERRORISM

And AMERICAN CHRISTIANS never allowed slavery either ...

Some of what you write is true. There were no state sponsored pogroms against Jews in America, but there was persecution. It was nothing compared to what people with black skin suffered here. Have you heard of the Crown Heights riots that went on for days ?

[missyme]

Of course....Our problems here have always been race related...And the cauacasion race which icludes mainly Christians and JEWS have lived the best...

The Blacks have been subject to white racism as well as the Indian and the Japanese during World War 11, but we have done many things in this country TO ERASE THE SINS of racism, because our country is founded on:
JUDEO-CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES...

I am sure you would agree with that?

[missyme]

That riot was based on a problem that exsisted between Orthodox Jews and Blacks...When BLACKS fight agaisnt white racism it always includes Christians and Jews because there is no difference in skin color...