Peggy Noonan: 'Passion' and Intrigue- The story of the Vatican and Mel Gibson's film gets curiouser

Opinion Journal ^ | 01/22/04 | Peggy Noonan

[RobbyS]

There are holy men. There are also fathers in Christ. Billy Graham seems to be holy and for many he is, like Paul, a father in Christ. But it is, at bottom, a conventional title, like "Your Holiness," which has been applied to men who are fare from holy, just as men have called men You Majesty" who are anything except majestic.

[RobbyS]

The term "infallible" as applied to the pope means he the highest authority in an infallible Church. "Incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith and morals." There have been only two cases in which a pope has exercised this authority. Since he speaks for the whole Church, even his private opinions have considerable weight, but only Infallible opinions end all controversy about a matter of doctrine.

[Vinnie]

I will be at the movie on the 1st day and I encourage everyone to do the same

In the Raleigh area , and likely everywhere, tickets are already on sale.

This film is going to easily break all records.

[Stone Mountain]

Anytime you hear an amazing story attributed to Paul Harvey, you have to double-check. Harvey is used by more hoaxers than any other public figure.

And that's the rest of the story...

[karenbarinka]

.....Submitted for your consideration.....

Isn't that how Rod Serling used to introduce episodes of the Twilight Zone?

[SirAllen]

"The Passion," which is to open on Feb. 25 I thought it was opening the Wednesday before Easter, when did it get moved up into February???

[Barnacle]

So you avoid guilt by association by having no association.

It's a brilliant concept and the reason why I started the Church of the Bible Believing Barnacle. It has never had a scandal of any kind, and is presently celebrating its second week of existence.

[polemikos]

the most offensive statement in the whole article is the one calling the Pope the "Holy Father". Only God is holy. Period.

Funny thing, Scripture says otherwise.

[polemikos]

I don't care what the Pope thinks (especially after Iraq).

The Church's Just War Doctrine lays the responsibility for the decision to go to war on the shoulders of government leaders. (They'll have more information than religious leaders and the general public). All papal statements and official catechetical documents state this. Even the U.S. Bishops official pronouncements agree with this.

However that doctrine lays out strict conditions that must be met.

The pope is thus left in the position of:
1 - working/arguing/cajoling all parties towards the biblical goal of peace, and
2 - praying/questioning that the conditions for a just war are met.

He is never in a position to "bless" a decision to go to war. That isn't his role.

You also have the problem of the media not, uh, "understanding" the larger context of the pope's messages, and thereby communicating it inaccurately.

See for example:

War in the Gulf (Iraq). What the Pope Really Said
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/879895/posts

The pope never excluded war in Iraq from the arc of practicable and just decisions. However, you wouldn't know it given the reporting.

Pope: "War is never just another means...for settling differences between nations"
Press: "War is NEVER Just."

Pope: "Let us not permit a human tragedy to become a religious catastrophe"
Press: "Pope Warns of Religious Catastrophe"

Pope: urges day of fasting to remind people of the suffering endured by Iraqis
Press: "Pope Steps Up Anti-war Crusade With Fast"

This is underscored by the fact that misguided (left-wing nutjob) religious
were constantly petitioning him to come out clearly against the war.
JPII ignored them.

I can't stress this enough: NEVER rely on the secular media to accurately report on what is said by Rome. Even the Catholic media gets it wrong sometimes.

Blessings,

[polemikos]

The pope offered his personal opinion regarding the movie. He doesn't want his opinion to be taken as an official teaching.

Bump to that!

but now you have to explain to all the protties why the difference is significant ;-)

[polemikos]

Matthew 23:9 "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven."

You're taking that seriously out of context. See, for example, Call No Man "Father"?

[Darlin']

Thank you for the ping. :)

Well, I think it is possible all versions may be true. IMO, its entirely likely that the pope was quoted accurately and that it is his personal opinion of the film but not an official one on behalf of the Vatican. I think that is the point they need to clarify. To the best of my recollection, the Vatican never comments offically on any of the arts and I feel certain that I've never seen a Vatican movie review. :)

I'm truly amazed at the controversy surrounding this film and I look forward to seeing it.

[Romulus]

Yep! :-)

[dangus]

>> Yeah.... really the most offensive statement in the whole article is the one calling the Pope the "Holy Father". Only God is holy. Period.>>

It always helps one sound pius to say such things, doesn't it? No, God is the source of all holiness, but he is not all that is holy; he has ordained for men and things to be holy.

Read of Men called holy in the scriptures!

"For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. "
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. "
"And ye shall be a holy nation"
"Everyone that touches them shall be holy"
"They shall be holy unto their God... Therefore, they shall be holy."
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: "
"Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; "
"I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. "
"Thou shalt sanctify him therefore; for he offereth the bread of thy God: he shall be holy unto thee: for I the LORD, which sanctify you, [am] holy. "
"he shall be holy, [and] shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. "
"All the days of his separation he [is] holy unto the LORD. "
"That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. "
" But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; "
"Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. "
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, "
"Ye take] too much upon you, seeing all the congregation [are] holy, every one of them, and the LORD [is] among them:"
" Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy;"
" the man whom the LORD doth choose, he [shall be] holy: [ye take] too much upon you, ye sons of Levi. "
"For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth. "
"thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God. "
"And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. "
"The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways. "
"And she said unto her husband, Behold now, I perceive that this [is] an holy man of God, which passeth by us continually. "
"But let none come into the house of the LORD, save the priests, and they that minister of the Levites; they shall go in, for they [are] holy:"
" Preserve my soul; for I [am] holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. "
"And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken."
"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. "
"There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: "
"That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: "
"Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. "
"Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. "
"And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. "
"and he that is holy, let him be holy still. "

[Aquinasfan]

The pope offered his personal opinion regarding the movie. He doesn't want his opinion to be taken as an official teaching.

Bump to that!

CathNews Admits Papal Quote True

[presidio9]

I can't stress this enough: NEVER rely on the secular media to accurately report on what is said by Rome. Even the Catholic media gets it wrong sometimes.

Bump

[joobers]

What we have here is a producer who was a little eager to prove that his work was acceptable, and a weasel-wording bastard in the Vatican out to stomp out expressions of religious faith which don't fit into his own personal agenda.

Meanwhile two prominent American columnists reported that, shortly after the Pope's comment was reported, Navarro-Valls had encouraged McEveety to use the quotation. In separate columns published on January 22 in response to the denial from Archbishop Dziwisz, Peggy Noonan and Rod Dreher of the Dallas Morning News reported that they had seen an email message from Navarro-Valls to McEveety, in which the papal spokesman told the film's producer that he should feel free to cite the Pope's comment "again and again and again."
Confronted with that email message, Navarro-Valls denied that it was authentic. But Noonan and Dreher were able to establish that the email message to McEveety was sent from Navarro-Valls' email address, and relayed through a computer at the Vatican.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.ewtn.com/news/index.asp

[joobers]

http://www.ewtn.com/news/index.asp

VATICAN PUBLIC-RELATIONS DEBACLE ON GIBSON'S "PASSION"
Vatican, Jan. 22 (CWNews.com) - Top Vatican officials are caught in a public-relations nightmare regarding a comment allegedly made by Pope John Paul after the Pontiff viewed Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of Christ.
Archbishop Stanislas Dziwisz, the Pope's private secretary; and Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the director of the Vatican press office, have each been quoted, by highly reliable sources, making completely contradictory statements about the Pope's reported comment.
In mid-December, Steve McEveety, the producer of The Passion, disclosed that the Pope had seen a preview copy of the film. McEveety reported that after watching the film with the Pontiff, Archbishop Dziwisz passed along a simple comment from the Pope: "It is as it was."
That one-sentence comment from the Pope was soon reported by Peggy Noonan of the Wall Street Journal, and independently confirmed by several other reporters, including John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter Cindy Wooden of Catholic News Service, and the Reuters news agency. Gibson's producer gave the Pope's statement a prominent display on the film's web site.
Later in December, however, anonymous Vatican officials told Catholic News Service that the Pope had not commented on the movie. Navarro-Valls, in more cautious statements, said that the Pope did not offer public comments on films-- suggesting that any remark attributed to the Pontiff should be treated as unofficial. The papal spokesman declined to discuss the specific quotation attributed to the Pope.
This week, however, Archbishop Dziwisz apparently reversed himself, telling Catholic News Service that the Pope "told no one his opinion of this film." This remarkable statement came a full month after the archbishop had been cited as the original source of the quote from the Pope.
Meanwhile two prominent American columnists reported that, shortly after the Pope's comment was reported, Navarro-Valls had encouraged McEveety to use the quotation. In separate columns published on January 22 in response to the denial from Archbishop Dziwisz, Peggy Noonan and Rod Dreher of the Dallas Morning News reported that they had seen an email message from Navarro-Valls to McEveety, in which the papal spokesman told the film's producer that he should feel free to cite the Pope's comment "again and again and again."
Confronted with that email message, Navarro-Valls denied that it was authentic. But Noonan and Dreher were able to establish that the email message to McEveety was sent from Navarro-Valls' email address, and relayed through a computer at the Vatican. On January 22, Navarro-Valls issued a short, bland statement confirming only that the Pope had indeed seen the Passion. Without directly responding to reports that the Pope had issued a one-sentence comment, the Vatican spokesman concluded: "It is the Holy Father's custom not to express public judgments on artistic works-- judgments which are always open to diverse evaluations of an aesthetic nature."

OTHER HEADLINES:

[joobers]

Amazing how a personal comment, made in passing to an aide, has been blown out of proportion. Gibson wants to use it as an endorsement! The Vatican does not give 'papal endorsements' to anything. What choice is left but to deny that "It is as it was!, is the "official" position of the pope.

email message from Navarro-Valls to McEveety, in which the papal spokesman told the film's producer that he should feel free to cite the Pope's comment "again and again and again."

http://www.ewtn.com/news/index.asp

[OLD REGGIE]

(over3.....) Tell me, is the pope's infallibility merely "cultural" too?

No I believe it is scriptural (Luke 10:16, Matt. 18:18).

Do you ever read your Scriptural citations? Forget for the moment that in Matthew 18:18 Jesus was speaking to more than one.

In Luke 10:16 Jesus was speaking to at least 70+. Were they all Popes?