We've all seen people on this website who seem to be absolutely crazy, can't construct or even understand a logical argument, can't deal with abstract ideas at all, but who are patriotic Americans for what seem like nothing but totally emotional reasons. I'm coming to understand the damage they do though. The irrationality of the junk science suppositions behind "Global Warming" for example. They cause real damage, cost real resources, cost real lives. It is this part of it that really bugs me.
Often they end up doing damage to our cause by giving the impression that all conservatives are nuts. We'd be better off if they understood things a lot better.
Goes back to an ability to think, (and that I would have to add 'logically' demonstrates just how depraved we have become.) Reason for this thread. I deal with it as a practical matter in my work every day. Public policy actions taken based upon faulty logic. Costs me money in taxes. Costs you, costs everyone.
I recently reviewed a book, Eco-Imperialism - Green Power, Black Death. (check out the web site) It documents the faulty logic and flawed premises of the environmental movement, and how it has literally caused the death of millions around the world.
It's funny, as an avowed non-altruist I care more about this fact than many of the altruists, of the left and the right do. But I can see myself in those deaths and they only see a floating abstraction principle, the result of which is those very deaths. Demands them in the name of unseen, unborn others.
So it is more than just an exercise in debate for me. I bring this analysis to what I do every day.
And, to reprise:
our cause by giving the impression that all conservatives are nuts.
I must plead guilty, I am not a 'conservative.' So it isn't 'my cause.' I have come to realize more and more of late the poverty of thought that is both 'liberalism' and 'conservatism.' I am so weary of this false dichotomy. Here let me give you an example. Go here. Quiz
Now, did you end up right or left, or up or down?
Right and left don't matter, they are only different justifications for control, up and down is what really matters. Do you advocate individual rights over collective power, or the opposite? A true dichotomy and a classic either/or.
And all the accusations and railings and denigration of logic is to avoid this very fact. This Very Fact. If reason and logic in human affairs can ever be truly "enthroned" then the politics of altruism, which is collectivism by another name, will be dethroned. This is the threat and this is the inevitable conclusion. Either/Or. With individual freedom hanging in the balance.
Don't know if you've been following other debates (you suprise me in this regard) but this is fundamental.
Liberty
There is so much embedded here. To "own yourself" presupposes an intellect to know what 'yourself' is as well as the abstract 'ownership.' I said 'intellect' but by that I then imply, logic, reason, law of identity, and so much more.
And if a person, every person, doesn't recognize the principle that that person, 'owns himself' (sorry I ain't PC) then the principle of "Rights" of "Ownership" is merely a power struggle, pure and simple. In that case the Hell Angels, or the Republicans win, it doesn't matter. We are all just slaves. (when is tax freedom day? May, June? Even Negroes in the South got to keep part of what they grew for themselves to survive on. It is only a matter of quantity.)
Ok, been a long day for me. But I have been very 'disheartened' by the lack of response to these threads. Understanding this issue is far more important than most people realize.
The sophistry of some people here notwithstanding, reason is the balwark that holds this society together, as you well understand. And reason cannot exist apart from logic. And fallacies are faulty logic.
The question is, are you willing to go where the conclusions lead? If not, then reason doesn't matter at all.
That "Liberty" graphic is a tremedous piece. This is the first I've seen of it, but it should be placed on CD-ROM and circulated to every library and school in America. How about even a preview in movie theaters?! The simplicity of the concept has been captured here in its most fundamental form.
While I agree with the point you both make concerning the danger and potential damage of a bad argument in defense of the right principle lost to the wrong person, the dilemma lies with the ability of people to learn from mistakes. The consequence of the engagement has the abilty to encourage one to learn from the process of debate to develop a logical argument. In my case, this is how I learned that my positions (leftist conjecture maintained in the naivete of post teen-dom) were wrong. Positions that were wrong could not be adequately defended. I learned this the hard way and was forced to re-evaluate the contradictions in my belief system. Beliefs were quickly overcome by thought process through which I have been developing ever since. In the same way, I expect that some (not all) of those who bravely attempt to defend the right principles in a public forum should be commended for the effort on the one hand, and corrected where necessary on the other.
Bad defenders are indeed a liability. Good ones, nevertheless, are priceless! Consider these threads to be the vehicle for this process.
