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Ukraine is gaining the upper hand. Putin will be terrified
The Telegraph ^ | 02 June 2025 | Owen Matthews

Posted on 06/02/2025 7:09:01 AM PDT by MinorityRepublican

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To: Carry_Okie

After all, it was NATO that went far beyond its agreements made at the collapse of the Soviet empire.


Many have claimed this to be the case. There was no such agreement, at least not signed. There was a similar agreement, not signed, that Ukraine give up its Soviet era nukes for assurances its borders would be respected.

Neither “agreement” has been honored by those involved.

NATO expansion has been fueled by countries strongly desiring to have NATO protection from Russia. The current war has induced Finnland and Sweden to join NATO.

Does Russia have historical reasons to fear European invasion? Absolutely. Do Russia’s neighbors have reason to fear Russian expansion? Absolutely.


61 posted on 06/02/2025 8:37:40 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
There was no such agreement, at least not signed.

I do remember it at the time, but did not know that it had gone unsigned.

Does Russia have historical reasons to fear European invasion? Absolutely. Do Russia’s neighbors have reason to fear Russian expansion? Absolutely.

That's the bottom line all right.

62 posted on 06/02/2025 8:42:06 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The tree of liberty needs a rope.)
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To: marktwain

The fact that such a complex mission involving so many people and so many elements in so many widely dispersed areas and requiring so much time to plan and assemble remained undetected, demonstrates to Russia that for Ukraine, just about anything is possible within Russia.

The more this soaks in to the Russians, the more disturbing it must be.


63 posted on 06/02/2025 8:51:06 AM PDT by ansel12 ((NATO warrior under Reagan, and RA under Nixon, bemoaning the pro-Russians from Vietnam to Ukraine.))
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To: Carry_Okie

“”””After all, it was NATO that went far beyond its agreements made at the collapse of the Soviet empire.””””

What agreements? not only was there no such treaty the nations of NATO never even voted or held discussions to even submit such a treaty for signing.


64 posted on 06/02/2025 8:55:00 AM PDT by ansel12 ((NATO warrior under Reagan, and RA under Nixon, bemoaning the pro-Russians from Vietnam to Ukraine.))
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To: Nextrush

If it is Russia’s Pearl Harbor, that means Russia’s enemies had better prepare for having awakened the Sleeping Bear. For Pearl Harbor was ultimately the beginning of the end for Japan’s Imperial Empire. Japan’s military elite leaders feared that they had awakened the Sleeping Giant , and it turned out that they were correct.


65 posted on 06/02/2025 8:58:48 AM PDT by Robert DeLong
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To: HamiltonJay
It will be interesting to see how Russia responds.

The cornerstone of Putin's power resides in the perception among Russian citizens that he is a protector. With Ukraine now demonstrating the ability to strike deep within Russian territory, this cornerstone is weakened. His power as a protector of Russia is now in question. What else is Ukraine capable of?

It seems he now has two choices. He must either respond with a wave of fire and blood so massive that the world shudders. Or he must resign.

And if he resigns, who replaces him? Someone who will push for a reset to the antebellum status quo? Or someone who will make Putin look like a moderate?

But make no mistake, yesterday's action by Ukraine was an incredible strike within Russia that will not go ignored. It is also a demonstration to NATO of what the future of warfare looks like. You can guarantee, every Admiral in the U.S. Navy right now is looking at fleets of ships lined up like sitting ducks in Norfolk and San Diego and thinking, "This could happen to us."

66 posted on 06/02/2025 9:14:02 AM PDT by Drew68 (I haven’t seen the Democrats this mad since yesterday. Save some tears for tomorrow.)
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To: ansel12
What agreements?

From Wikipedia:

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises four substantially identical political agreements signed at the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE) in Budapest, Hungary, on 5 December 1994, to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). The four memoranda were originally signed by four nuclear powers: Ukraine, Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom.[1] France and China gave individual assurances in separate documents.[2]

The memoranda, signed in Patria Hall at the Budapest Convention Center with U.S. Ambassador Donald M. Blinken amongst others in attendance,[3] prohibited Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, "except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."

The article goes on to say that Russia violated the terms of the agreement with its annexation of Crimea, which had apparently voted for it. Hence Russia's claim about "self-determination." I'm not taking a position on that as I don't know much about that election. What I am saying is that I'm absolutely certain you know about that document. Hence to pretend that was 'nothing on paper' is farcical. Ukraine gave up its (Soviet) nukes in return for security guarantees Obama ignored.
67 posted on 06/02/2025 9:16:20 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The tree of liberty needs a rope.)
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To: Carry_Okie

“”””After all, it was NATO that went far beyond its agreements made at the collapse of the Soviet empire.””””

Post 64 asked you, what agreements?


68 posted on 06/02/2025 9:20:43 AM PDT by ansel12 ((NATO warrior under Reagan, and RA under Nixon, bemoaning the pro-Russians from Vietnam to Ukraine.))
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To: ansel12
From "The National Security Archive" The biggest train wreck on the track to NATO expansion in the 1990s – Boris Yeltsin’s “cold peace” blow up at Bill Clinton in Budapest in December 1994 – was the result of “combustible” domestic politics in both the U.S. and Russia, and contradictions in the Clinton attempt to have his cake both ways, expanding NATO and partnering with Russia at the same time, according to newly declassified U.S. documents published today by the National Security Archive.

The Yeltsin eruption on December 5, 1994, made the top of the front page of the New York Times the next day, with the Russian president’s accusation (in front of Clinton and other heads of state gathered for a summit of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, CSCE) that the “domineering” U.S. was “trying to split [the] continent again” through NATO expansion. The angry tone of Yeltsin’s speech echoed years later in his successor Vladimir Putin’s famous 2007 speech at the Munich security conference, though by then the list of Russian grievances went well beyond NATO expansion to such unilateral U.S. actions as withdrawal from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and the invasion of Iraq.

The new documents, the result of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by the National Security Archive, include a series of revelatory “Bill-Boris” letters in the summer and fall of 1994, and the previously secret memcon of the presidents’ one-on-one at the Washington summit in September 1994. Clinton kept assuring Yeltsin any NATO enlargement would be slow, with no surprises, building a Europe that was inclusive not exclusive, and in “partnership” with Russia.


69 posted on 06/02/2025 9:28:36 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The tree of liberty needs a rope.)
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To: MinorityRepublican
You've outed yourself. You're as a big a numbskull as Marcus is.

Ukraine's frontlines are crumbling:

[ Ukraine Frontline Changes ] TOTAL COLLAPSE AT NIU-YORK FRONT!!! Collapse at Sumy and Lyman too~!

70 posted on 06/02/2025 9:32:38 AM PDT by Kazan
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To: MinorityRepublican
18 months of planning for this?

Big Serge ☦️🇺🇸🇷🇺
@witte_sergei

Actual count is 3 big bears destroyed and a couple more damaged, which is actually a strong result for Ukraine. Unfortunately these types of accounts lack perspective on what constitutes a successful strike and have to pretend that half the fleet was wiped out.

11:30 AM · Jun 1, 202

71 posted on 06/02/2025 9:37:46 AM PDT by Kazan
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To: Carry_Okie

You keep showing things years after there was no Soviet Union in existence and you don’t show any NATO agreed and signed treaties that were violated.

NATO never voted on and agreed to put Russia in charge of who was allowed to join NATO.


72 posted on 06/02/2025 9:38:01 AM PDT by ansel12 ((NATO warrior under Reagan, and RA under Nixon, bemoaning the pro-Russians from Vietnam to Ukraine.))
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To: marktwain

What will Putin do next? What revenge will be exact on Ukraine and who really set this up? Was it CIA? MI-6? or ? Maybe its time for Putin to go all Ivan the Terrible and start to finish off Ukraine and all who enable her. Did Trump know of this attack? Did he help it with data? Was it to keep the war going? (See Ukraine can win after all!) Neo-Cons, Banderites and Pro-Ukraine people cheer and shout at this remarkable victory—but their will be a price to pay. You have united Russians as never before. This bold move may have kicked a time bomb.


73 posted on 06/02/2025 9:38:41 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (. War is Hell, War IS a Crime.)
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To: MinorityRepublican
[ Ukraine Frontline Changes ] TOTAL COLLAPSE AT NIU-YORK FRONT!!! Collapse at Sumy and Lyman too~!

18 months of planning for this?

Big Serge ☦️🇺🇸🇷🇺
@witte_sergei

Actual count is 3 big bears destroyed and a couple more damaged, which is actually a strong result for Ukraine. Unfortunately these types of accounts lack perspective on what constitutes a successful strike and have to pretend that half the fleet was wiped out.

11:30 AM · Jun 1, 202

74 posted on 06/02/2025 9:42:10 AM PDT by Kazan
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To: Paladin2

“Should the Rooskies nuke the Uke land well, where are they going to get the peeps to live there afterward?”

I have stood at ground zero in Hiroshima,.It’s a vibrant modern area now. Air bursts do not leave lasting fallout as the fireball never touches the ground to mix in soil and rubble it gets dispersed in the stratosphere.

I also have been all over the Nevada test site doing gravity survey and hydro analysis. The place where the USA did surface burst a number of out larger weapons than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You can walk one most of it now, every one wears dose meters but we never got more than a x rays worth of rads.

You could level a city with megaton air bursts, wait for the fire storms to burn out and march right in a few days later. This says nothing of using enhanced radiation weapons aka neutron bombs they also don’t leave long term fallout, you would need to wait for a few weeks for the activation products to decay.


75 posted on 06/02/2025 9:43:57 AM PDT by GenXPolymath
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To: HamiltonJay

When you speak of a gloved hand, what exactly do you mean? In three years time, the only weapon not used by Russia, and I may be wrong, are nuclear weapons.


76 posted on 06/02/2025 9:44:53 AM PDT by SpirituTuo ( )
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To: MinorityRepublican

Russia may just turn Kiev into a pile of rubble. Ukraine has victories in battles and attacks but can’t possibly win the war. The EU is insane.


77 posted on 06/02/2025 9:50:26 AM PDT by shanover (...To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.-S.Adams)
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To: marktwain

Economically yes, but otherwise no.

Ukraine is showing Taiwan how to defend itself from a larger invading horde


78 posted on 06/02/2025 9:50:38 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: shanover
Russia may just turn Kiev into a pile of rubble.

They've been attacking Kyiv nonstop since February 2022.

So it's nothing new.

79 posted on 06/02/2025 9:52:32 AM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: tennmountainman

The Ukes lack the ability to take their territory back unless Russia gives it back. They MAY have the ability through these attacks and more to come, to make some Russians think what Putins war is costing Russia isn’t worth it to Russia and Putin gets murdered by his own people. That could reasonably happen and is likely what is going on unofficially. How much has this cost Russia so far? The Ukes are trying to bleed them.


80 posted on 06/02/2025 9:55:48 AM PDT by desertsolitaire (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?)
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