Posted on 05/25/2025 4:05:48 AM PDT by JosephJames
Does CONTEXT mean nothing to you?
You know it's funny that you are so quick to accuse me of not believing the words of Jesus when what you are really talking about is the Catholic version of Jesus' words. And that "version" didn't really get spelled out in your official teaching (transubstantiation) until centuries after all the Apostles were all gone. I HAVE explained numerous times what I believe. Either you don't remember, don't read it when I have or like being able to challenge someone to repeatedly snap to your commands to "EXPLAIN YOURSELF!" at every chance.
Maybe this one time you'll read what I say and stop asking the same loaded questions every time we get on this topic? I do believe completely in what Jesus said. He DID sacrifice His body and blood for my sins and He HAD a real flesh and blood human body. He is fully God and fully human. He is the INCARNATION of Almighty God. He said it is through FAITH/BELIEF that we eat His flesh and drink His blood - when we BELIEVE in His sacrifice for our sins and accept the gift of God which is eternal life in Christ that IS eating and drinking Him AND a participation in His suffering in our place. If Jesus had not died for us, we would have to physically and spiritually die and be separated from God from all eternity. Just as Jesus died ONCE for all, we trust in Him and His sacrifice is forever efficacious. He doesn't have to continuously die over and over. His resurrection from the dead is proof that IT IS FINISHED. Our redemption is complete and we receive that great and precious promise by faith. The bread and wine He taught at the Last Supper was not only an act of faith (a testimony to others) in receiving it, it was a REMEBRANCE of Him just like He commanded. We do SHOW the Lord's death each time we join with others in this community of saints in remembering what He has done for us. He never said the bread had to LITERALLY change into His flesh nor the wine into real blood in order for us to consume Him. He repeatedly said BELIEVE in Him.
And I do think it ticks you off when you come on here and make your arguments by authority (your church leaders said so) and people don't accept that authority. Instead of stating your reasons why you believe and then respectfully acknowledge that everyone who diligently seeks to know God WILL find Him when we seek for Him with all our hearts as HE has promised, you accuse us of not believing Jesus' words. Trust that God is able to reveal the truth to all those who sincerely want to know it and the Holy Spirit will lead them to the way the truth and the life. Don't get hung up just because we may not come to that WAY via your on ramp.
Like these......
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Matthew 23: 8-10 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
What we object to is when someone, be it Catholic or some other religion, take a verse out of context and use it to support an entire doctrine specific for their church that they created.
The John 6 passage is speaking metaphorically, and yet, in the middle of it all, Catholicism demands that one verse be yanked out and accepted completely literally with no basis at all for justifying a literal interpretation. Additionally, that interpretation of that one verse about eating blood, contradicts the entire body of the rest of Scripture dealing with blood, it's consumption, and atonement.
And yet we're expected to accept and believe that Jesus commanded His disciples to sin at the Last Supper by eating His blood??????
And that after Jesus told us this.
Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Satan already has the protestant churches in hand since they were founded on subjectivism, that is, the truth comes from each creature, instead of from the Creator.
I though it was obviously implied, so I will add what should have been understood:
Satan already has the protestant churches in hand since they were founded on subjectivism, that is, the truth comes from each creature, instead of from the Creator. This also means:
Satan already has the protestant churches in hand since they were founded on subjectivism, that is, the INTERPRETATION of the truth and of Sacred Scripture comes from each creature, instead of from the Creator.
The only thing God cannot do is contradict Himself!
Thus if He gave us a free will, He will respect that free will forever, even if we choose not to seek His Truth and live His Truth, and end up in hell. Of course, not seeking His truth means to invent the truth, and interpret the truth as we would like the truth instead of following the truth of God found in Divine Revelation.
All the rest God is OMNIPOTENT!!!
At one time or another, all the patriarchs of the Old Testament were tested by God to the point of seeing if they totally trusted in God, even if God asked them to do the absurd, such as promising Abraham a great number of descendants and then asking Abraham to sacrifice his only son!
This is true for all true saints, who will be tested in a similar way before they can enter into the presence of God in heaven.
Total trust in God, not in ourselves, is one of the fundamental requirements for salvation.
Yet you said God can do anything He wants to. Now you’re attempting to backtrack to cover your error.
You know, I don't really even care if they want to believe they are literally eating the flesh and blood of Jesus in their Mass. We have religious freedom in this country and people can believe or not believe whatever they want. My objection has always been that Catholicism asserts their sacraments are the ONLY way to salvation and that their priests are the only ones who can bring down Jesus and miraculously turn the bread and wine of the Eucharist into Christ's true body and serve it up for believers to physically swallow so that they "receive" Jesus anew. And it's to be done every time you go to Mass after going to confession first, of course, and doing your penance. They declare that in order to get to heaven you have to believe what they say, confirm that you are literally eating the flesh and blood of Jesus and, along with your good works, you might merit eternal life with Him. Theirs is NOT the good news gospel and because it's not, it is an accursed one that leads people away from Jesus not to Him.
It really doesn't matter if you see the Lord's Supper bread/cracker and juice/wine (elements) as the Real Presence of Jesus - that He is there in spirit but the elements don't literally change, or Christ's presence where the elements miraculously change to His flesh and blood body even though they don't physically appear that way, or that the elements Represent His body and blood but they aren't literally or spiritually changed by the blessing of the priest. What matters is our faith IN Christ and believing the sacrifice of His real body and shed blood was for our sins and that salvation is a gift of God's GRACE and not through our works. We observe this together in REMEMBRANCE of Him as He said we should. Even in Catholicism, you can do everything they say you must do, believe what they say you must believe, but still have no assurance you will go to heaven when you die. To claim you are sure is seen as the sin of Presumption! Imagine that...I commit a sin when I believe God keeps His promise and cannot lie. It shows their faith is in themselves first instead of Jesus.
I left Catholicism because the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the truth of the gospel - that I HAVE eternal life through faith in Christ and not because I must earn or merit or deserve it by my works and that this precious promise meant I can be assured of my salvation NOW. There's a reason why the Holy Spirit inspired John to write the words:
I believe that this assurance changes the whole dynamic of how we relate to God. We love Him because He first loved us. I don't live in fear of damnation and strive to be a "good" person because I don't want to go to hell. I have been changed all the way to my very core/heart and God has written His way of life for me there. I look back since coming to saving faith in Jesus 56 years ago and see how God has molded me. He has always been faithful, merciful and good. I am light years from where I first started. And for someone to come onto these threads and presume I don't believe Jesus' words or that I can't be saved because I don't do "Christianity" like they do, is just so very wrong and disrespectful to God. To me, it says they don't believe in His promise that He rewards those who diligently seek Him, that He will be found when we search for Him with all our hearts and that it is His will that we all come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. The Holy Spirit will lead us into the truth.
What this is doing is proving the “three uses of the Law” theology correct.
The unregenerate can’t comprehend the Law of God as anything but something you have to follow out of terror of punishment.
The regenerate on the other hand understand the Law as both a mirror to reveal our sinfulness and also as a guide for life.
So don’t blame them for refusing to understand why we don’t need the threat of Hell in order to follow Christ. They very literally can’t understand.
I think you might consider taking a course on logic!!!
No one ends up in heaven by chance. No one ends up in hell by chance. The place where we will spend eternity entails a very radical choice in total freedom.
The problem is “Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2Cor 11:14). In particular, this “angel of light” takes the form and lie of convincing us that the truth according to us is the truth of God, and the interpretation of the truth or of Sacred Scripture is the truth of the Holy Spirit, when in reality it is OUR truth and OUR interpretation.
“The father of lies” (Jn 8:44) is much more intelligent than we are, and he does not sleep.
If we have the humility to consider the possibility that we could be deceived by “the father of lies” (Jn 8:44), and that we are not the source of all truth and all possible interpretations of the truth, then there is the possibility that we will begin realizing how we might have been deceived in our personal convictions, especially in this period of the great apostasy (2Thess 2:3) when even “the elect will be deceived if possible” (Mt 24:24). Then we might be more willing to listen to others of good will who do not believe as we do.
The choice is ours! Again I repeat:
No one ends up in heaven by chance. No one ends up in hell by chance. The place where we will spend eternity entails a very radical choice in total freedom.
Best wishes for all eternity!!!
You’ve shown a general lack of knowledge on the topic.
Even in Catholicism, you can do everything they say you must do, believe what they say you must believe, but still have no assurance you will go to heaven when you die. To claim you are sure is seen as the sin of Presumption! Imagine that...I commit a sin when I believe God keeps His promise and cannot lie.
What some people call *presumption*, we call *faith*.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Galatians 3:5-6 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
I believe that this assurance changes the whole dynamic of how we relate to God. We love Him because He first loved us. I don't live in fear of damnation and strive to be a "good" person because I don't want to go to hell. I have been changed all the way to my very core/heart and God has written His way of life for me there.
Yes, fear of hellfire is NOT the only motivation to love and obey God.
Love, and thankfulness and gratitude for all He's done for you is another, and actually provides a far better motivation for obedience than fear.
What an affront to God that we should be so terrified of Him zapping us to hell that we toe the line to avoid His wrath, when He already demonstrated how much He loves us through the whole life and death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Romans 5:6-11 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Because they don’t love God.
I mean, what else can you expect from people who pray to Mary more than they pray to their Lord?
But they COULD understand if they let go of their spiritual pride and humbly came to Jesus for His undeserved grace. I used to fret over the thought that someone might go to hell if I chickened out and didn't share the gospel with them. But then I realized that in God's sovereignty He knows those who are His. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. (John 6:37) Nobody will be in hell because he/she never had a chance to know the gospel. It is a wonderful thing that God uses His people to proclaim the good news to the lost. However, how a person responds to it determines their eternal destination and is between them and God. He opens the earnestly seeking heart to receive Him. And all those who come to Christ He will never cast out, lose or condemn.
And I wanted to add that the genuine child of God/believer in Jesus Christ is indwelt with the Holy Spirit who enables us even to HAVE that inward desire for holiness and to submit to Him. Those who are trusting in their own good works to merit eternal life don't have that so their motive towards holy living comes from the fear of damnation instead of gratitude. I ask...which one really glorifies and pleases God?
Your Lutheran jab, claiming I “pray to Mary more than my Lord,” is a lazy, baseless stereotype that doesn’t hold up. It’s the kind of lazy response that shows your ignorance or bad faith
Mary’s called “blessed” (Luke 1:48, Greek makarizō) and intercedes at Cana (John 2:3-5), always pointing to Jesus: “Do whatever he tells you.” She’s not stealing God’s spotlight—she’s His chosen vessel. Hebrews 12:1 and Revelation 5:8 back the saints’ intercession (Greek proseuchē), including Mary’s. Mock that, and you’re dissing God’s plan.
From the 3rd-century Sub Tuum Praesidium to Ephesus (431) all Christians have venerated Mary as Theotokos, never as God. The Mass worships God alone—Mary’s not on the altar. Trent (1545-1563) shut down any confusion: latria for God, hyperdulia for Mary. Even Luther respected her, so your smear’s just Reformation baggage.
Words Matter: “Pray” (Latin precari) means I’m asking Mary’s intercession, not worshipping her. The Hail Mary says “pray for us” (ora pro nobis), not “you’re divine.” Mixing dulia with latria is your error, not my idolatry.
“More”? Please: The Mass, Our Father, and sacraments dominate my prayer life. Marian devotions? Secondary, all about Jesus—like the Rosary’s focus on His life. Your claim’s pure fiction, no receipts.
Cut the Sneer: Your “what else can you expect?” drips with contempt for the woman who bore my Savior. I honor Mary as Scripture commands, trusting her prayers lead me to Christ. Drop the tired caricature and deal with the truth.
you raised a great point about Nicodemus’ response to Jesus in John 3:4, where he asks, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” You argue that Nicodemus’ question implies he understood Jesus to mean “born again” rather than “born from above,” suggesting that the Greek term anothen should be translated as “again.”
The Greek word anothen in John 3:3 can mean “again,” “anew,” or “from above,” depending on context. It appears elsewhere in John’s Gospel with the sense of “from above” (e.g., John 3:31, “He who comes from above [anothen] is above all”; John 19:11, “You would have no authority over me unless it had been given you from above [anothen]”). In John 3:3, “born from above” fits the theological thrust of Jesus’ teaching, emphasizing a spiritual transformation by God’s grace, originating from heaven, rather than a mere repetition of physical birth.
Nicodemus’ question in John 3:4 does not necessarily mean he heard “born again” as opposed to “born from above.” Instead, it reflects his confusion about the spiritual nature of Jesus’ teaching. As a Pharisee, Nicodemus was likely familiar with Jewish concepts of physical birth and ritual purification but not with the radical new birth Jesus describes. His question about re-entering his mother’s womb shows he’s thinking literally, missing the spiritual metaphor altogether—whether Jesus meant “again” or “from above.” This misunderstanding is a literary device John uses to prompt Jesus’ clarification in John 3:5: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 points to Baptism, where we are “born from above” through the Holy Spirit’s action in the sacrament. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1215) teaches that Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration, cleansing us from original sin and incorporating us into Christ’s Body. This aligns with “born from above,” as the grace of Baptism comes from God’s heavenly initiative, not human effort. Nicodemus’ confusion highlights the novelty of this teaching, not a literal endorsement of “born again” as a repeated physical birth.
Ealgeone, you didn’t counter a single point I made, so I’ll take that as conceding that 1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 don’t mandate marriage for bishops—only fidelity if married. Your silence speaks volumes. Now, let’s tackle your non-response on celibacy.
I showed you Jesus Himself endorses celibacy in Matthew 19:10-12, praising those who choose it “for the sake of the kingdom” (Greek: eunouchos for God’s sake). Paul doubles down in 1 Corinthians 7:7-8, 32-35, calling the unmarried state superior for undivided devotion to God (Greek: agamos, unmarried). Celibacy isn’t just allowed—it’s exalted. Your claim that it contradicts Scripture is baseless and ignores these clear texts.
The Church’s authority to set disciplines like celibacy comes straight from Christ (Matthew 16:19, “bind and loose”) and the apostles’ example (Acts 15:28-29, setting rules for Gentiles). Celibacy for bishops, rooted in apostolic tradition, was practiced early on—see the Council of Elvira (c. 306). It’s a discipline, not dogma, so your rigid “Scripture-only” lens misses the mark. You’re conflating biblical mandates with Church governance, and it’s a weak argument.
History’s on my side: early Christians, from Jerome to Augustine, saw celibacy as a higher calling, not a contradiction. Your objection lacks evidence and dismisses centuries of tradition. Stop dodging—either engage with the texts and history or admit your critique’s got no legs.
Metmon “Which of the 21 Catholic church councils is the TRUE form of Catholicism”
You claim to be an ex cat and yet you post this which shows zero knowledge of Catholicism?!?!?
Metmom, Your scattershot attack on Catholic authority—questioning the “last true pope,” the “true” Church council, and tossing in the Orthodox for good measure—is a classic Protestant dodge. It’s all noise, no substance.
The Catholic Church doesn’t pick and choose “true” popes or councils like some buffet. Every validly elected pope, from Peter to Pope Francis, holds the keys Christ gave in Matthew 16:19 (Greek: kleis, authority to bind and loose). Every ecumenical council, from Nicaea (325) to Vatican II (1962-1965), carries binding authority when confirmed by the pope, as Acts 15:28 shows the apostles setting precedent. Your “which one’s true?” game ignores the Church’s unbroken continuity, guided by the Holy Spirit (John 16:13).
Vatican II, Vatican I, Trent—all 21 councils—aren’t competing “forms” of Catholicism. They’re developments of the same deposit of faith, addressing different times and challenges, rooted in Scripture and Tradition (2 Thess 2:15, Greek: paradosis). Trent (1545-1563) clarified justification against Protestant errors. Vatican I (1869-1870) defined papal infallibility. Vatican II renewed the Church’s mission in the modern world. They don’t cancel each other out—they build on the same truth. Your attempt to pit them against each other is a strawman.
The “who knows?” shrug is intellectual laziness. The Catholic Church’s authority, rooted in Scripture, Tradition, and history, isn’t up for grabs. Stop throwing darts blindfolded and engage with the evidence—or admit you’re just lobbing cheap shots.
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