Posted on 03/20/2022 6:10:45 AM PDT by Travis McGee
To understand current events, you need to understand history, and to understand history, you need to study the maps. I've been doing this for a while, and now I have enough of them to make a Ukraine map study thread. Naturally, your opinion may differ, but maps are history frozen in time. In an important way, maps are the historical record.
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Russia purchased Crimea from the Ottoman Empire in the same manner that the USA purchased Alaska from Russia. (In gold, FWIW.)
If Russian Crimea has to be handed over to Ukraine, again, then for sure we have to give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians. Our annexation of Hawaii was done by brute military force, under the policy of "Manifest Destiny." We just outright stole Hawaii, because we wanted it due to its strategic location.
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By all means, the independent nation of Ukraine MUST be kept together, within its modern borders, which go all the way back in time to 1991!
Better to escalate to Nuclear World War Three, than to alter these ancient unchangeable historic borders.
/sarcasm
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How would America react if, during a national economic depression, in the future a stronger China formed an alliance with Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Latin America, and moved troops, tanks and missiles, country by country, closer to the borders of the USA? This is how Russia views NATO in the post-Soviet era.
You can scoff, and protest that NATO is purely a defensive alliance....but tell that to the Serbians, the Libyans, and the Afghans. And don't forget Kosovo, carved out of Serbia by NATO.
The Russians are now faced with American "defensive" ABMs in Poland and Romania. What is the difference between an ABM and a MRBM? Its launch angle, and its warhead.
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I realize they don't teach much history in American schools, but the "Great Patriotic War" map shown below is extremely real to Russians, and very much on their minds. The USSR came within a whisker of total defeat by Germany in 1942. If the Nazis had not been stopped at Stalingrad, Germany would have cut off the Soviet Union's oil supplies, and total defeat and racial extermination would have rapidly followed.
Ukraine joining NATO, with Article 5 guarantees, would mean that American, German and British troops, tanks and missiles would be staged directly against the heart of Russia. The NATO tanks would be just days from cutting off Russia's oil. Missiles would be bare minutes from Moscow. At least the German Nazis had to fight hard to get across Poland and Ukraine to get to Stalingrad.
Ukraine in NATO means that the next time, European military forces will already be located in an advanced attack position. Yes, NATO. Russians are very aware of history. Last time, the Germans were joined in their attack by French, "Viking," and Ukrainian SS divisions, as well as the Spanish Condor Legion, Romanians, Italians and other national military formations. So yes, in NATO, Russians see the potential for a reprise of 1942, but this time with NATO getting a head start by being pre-positioned in Ukraine.
You can laugh, you can scoff, but trust me, this is no laughing matter to the Russians.
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As shown in the last map, much of Ukraine's strategic importance is still related to energy transportation.
Why do you think Hunter Biden was paid millions of dollars to be on the board of a Ukrainian natural gas conglomerate? Why did the sons of John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, Mitt Romney and other American elites all have their snouts in the trough in Ukraine?
It's about controlling the distribution of energy from Russia to Europe, and mega billions of dollars are involved for the players in charge.
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So who believes that possible escalation to World War 3, with nukes involved, is a better solution than a national divorce in Ukraine?
Yugoslavia was created on the map from whole cloth by politicians in 1918 at the Versailles Conference, and it broke apart into separate nations during a bloody civil war in the 1990s, but at least nuclear weapons were not involved.
Czechoslovakia was also created by politicians in 1918, and after the fall of the Soviet Union it amicably divorced to become the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Ukraine, invented by V.I. Lenin as the Ukraine SSR within the Soviet Union around the same time as Versailles, is also an artificially invented political construct. The entire history of the current version of Ukraine as an independent nation goes back only to 1991, and the collapse of the USSR.
So which is a better solution? A national divorce, or risking World War 3, with nukes?
Excellent work.
I’ve been saying more or less the same thing until I got blue in the face.
The one part of map #1 that’s wrong is it doesn’t show Stalin’s annexation of 1/3 of Poland after 1945 (which is now “Western Ukraine”), and which before it was Poland was Austria.
I get it that those people want to be “Europeans”. Fine. But they don’t get to take the Russian part along with them.
Now, that may be considered communist expansion they way things are going in the US. If you are worried about it, better fight against it within our own borders.
Thank you, sir, always appreciate your insights.
So what you are saying is that you would be fine if a more powerful China coopted the leaders of Canada, Mexico and Cuba, and placed troops, tanks and missiles there.
Just so we’re clear, that is your position.
“Ukraine is not one country, any more than Czechoslovakia used to be. Czechoslovakia”
Sure. But Czech Rep and Slovakia agreed to form two nations.
Ukraine did not agree to do this.
Russia illegally annexed Crimea by force, as they created the Donbas independent areas by force of arms.
Now, Russia is invading all of Ukraine by force.
Big difference there.
I’ve written this on other threads... half of my family is from Ukraine. They;ve been in Kiev since the 1600’s, they’ve always referred to themselves as Russian, never Ukrainian as that was the Catholic western area. The Soviets coercively moved populations around to break up ethnic tribalism. The current nation referred to as Ukraine, is half Russian and Kiev is considered the birthplace of Rus culture. But this has changed since 91 where a push began to create a Ukrainian cultural identity and nationalism.
While no one wants war, there are certainly groups of cultural Russians who are not that upset with becoming Russia, as they feel more connected to that culture.
This map? Or one up-thread?
I don’t care if it’s spelled “Kiow” and the Sarmatians are owed reparations - still none of America’s business.
One key element of this war is that few realize the NATO expansion includes nuclear weapons expansion. Just like the Cuban Missile Crisis was brought on by the US placing nuclear missiles in Turkey and was resolved by our removing those missiles from Turkey, so is this. The US and Europe have expanded NATO to double it size since the USSR fell apart. With each expansion comes nuclear weapons and advanced technologies, including new intelligence capabilities.
Yes, boys and girls, for every nation that joins NATO they get the latest super-duper top secret data on Russia. Some of that data we once even restricted from going to the British, but now, every one gets a copy. We literally sell top secret information once held strictly for US use to dozens of nations. Entire network systems have been created since the 1990’s to transmit that classified information to ‘allies’ who pay us. The Military Industrial Complex makes a small fortune on that data.
If you were Russia, what would you think about NATO handing all your neighbors intelligence information about you and nuclear weapons access?
Good work, sir.
“still none of America’s business.”
I think we all agree on that. I think the underlying statement Travis is making here is that the US is directly causing this war by interfering in the area. If we back off, as Russia has stated, then Russia will back off too.
“Sure. But Czech Rep and Slovakia agreed to form two nations.”
True. Thank God.
“Ukraine did not agree to do this.” West Ukraine, under the control if its color revolution Western bosses, does not agree, yet. Yugoslavia also separated, and also violently. Do you support forcing Yugoslavia back together?
“Russia illegally annexed Crimea by force,”
Utter bulls#it. Crimea was annexed with a phone call: Take down one flag and put up the other.
“as they created the Donbas independent areas by force of arms.”
Not the way Russians or the people of the Donbas see it. Are you happy about risking WW3, with nukes, to continue to force the (formerly pro-Hitler pro-Nazi) West Ukraine domination of Russian-speaking East Ukraine?
A united Ukraine is worth so much to you that it’s worth triggering WW3?
A nation that was created from whole cloth by V.I. Lenin in 1918 as the Ukraine SSR, inside the USSR?
A united Ukraine that has only existed as an independent country since 1991, and whose borders have shifted wildly down the decades and centuries?
That’s worth WW3 with nukes, to you?
Thank you for posting some well researched info. Don’t know that I agree with it all, but some intelligent discourse is always appreciated.
For the record, JFK pitched a fit about Soviet missiles being set up in Cuba...when we already had ours in Turkey. And at the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, both countries removed those missiles, from Cuba and from Turkey.
If the people of Ukraine wish to secede from a tyranny, they should be allowed to.
It is always wise to carefully consider the POV of your opponent ... he may be as or more dedicated to his belief system than you are to yours.
This is especially true about the POV of a nuclear superpower.
“Utter bulls#it. Crimea was annexed with a phone call: Take down one flag and put up the other.”
Incorrect.
“In February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine...
... On 23 February, pro-Russian demonstrations were held in the Crimean city of Sevastopol. On 27 February, masked Russian troops without insignia[41] took over the Supreme Council (parliament) of Crimea[42][43] and captured strategic sites across Crimea. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Sergey Aksyonov government in Crimea, the conducting of the Crimean status referendum and the declaration of Crimea’s independence on 16 March 2014.[44][45] Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two Russian federal subjects—the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol on 18 March 2014.[46][47][note 2] Following the annexation, Russia escalated military presence on the peninsula and leveraged nuclear threats to solidify the new status quo on the ground.[49]”
Thank you for a history lesson with maps.
I like what oblomov posted elsewhere:
The Ukraine war is a proxy war between two factions of the left.
The old anti-authoritarian left has been marginalized, and they aren’t one of the warring factions.
It’s between the nationalist neo-Stalinist left and transnational corporatist progressivism.
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