This map? Or one up-thread?
Posted on 03/20/2022 6:10:45 AM PDT by Travis McGee
Excellent work.
I’ve been saying more or less the same thing until I got blue in the face.
The one part of map #1 that’s wrong is it doesn’t show Stalin’s annexation of 1/3 of Poland after 1945 (which is now “Western Ukraine”), and which before it was Poland was Austria.
I get it that those people want to be “Europeans”. Fine. But they don’t get to take the Russian part along with them.
Now, that may be considered communist expansion they way things are going in the US. If you are worried about it, better fight against it within our own borders.
Thank you, sir, always appreciate your insights.
So what you are saying is that you would be fine if a more powerful China coopted the leaders of Canada, Mexico and Cuba, and placed troops, tanks and missiles there.
Just so we’re clear, that is your position.
“Ukraine is not one country, any more than Czechoslovakia used to be. Czechoslovakia”
Sure. But Czech Rep and Slovakia agreed to form two nations.
Ukraine did not agree to do this.
Russia illegally annexed Crimea by force, as they created the Donbas independent areas by force of arms.
Now, Russia is invading all of Ukraine by force.
Big difference there.
I’ve written this on other threads... half of my family is from Ukraine. They;ve been in Kiev since the 1600’s, they’ve always referred to themselves as Russian, never Ukrainian as that was the Catholic western area. The Soviets coercively moved populations around to break up ethnic tribalism. The current nation referred to as Ukraine, is half Russian and Kiev is considered the birthplace of Rus culture. But this has changed since 91 where a push began to create a Ukrainian cultural identity and nationalism.
While no one wants war, there are certainly groups of cultural Russians who are not that upset with becoming Russia, as they feel more connected to that culture.
This map? Or one up-thread?
I don’t care if it’s spelled “Kiow” and the Sarmatians are owed reparations - still none of America’s business.
One key element of this war is that few realize the NATO expansion includes nuclear weapons expansion. Just like the Cuban Missile Crisis was brought on by the US placing nuclear missiles in Turkey and was resolved by our removing those missiles from Turkey, so is this. The US and Europe have expanded NATO to double it size since the USSR fell apart. With each expansion comes nuclear weapons and advanced technologies, including new intelligence capabilities.
Yes, boys and girls, for every nation that joins NATO they get the latest super-duper top secret data on Russia. Some of that data we once even restricted from going to the British, but now, every one gets a copy. We literally sell top secret information once held strictly for US use to dozens of nations. Entire network systems have been created since the 1990’s to transmit that classified information to ‘allies’ who pay us. The Military Industrial Complex makes a small fortune on that data.
If you were Russia, what would you think about NATO handing all your neighbors intelligence information about you and nuclear weapons access?
Good work, sir.
“still none of America’s business.”
I think we all agree on that. I think the underlying statement Travis is making here is that the US is directly causing this war by interfering in the area. If we back off, as Russia has stated, then Russia will back off too.
“Sure. But Czech Rep and Slovakia agreed to form two nations.”
True. Thank God.
“Ukraine did not agree to do this.” West Ukraine, under the control if its color revolution Western bosses, does not agree, yet. Yugoslavia also separated, and also violently. Do you support forcing Yugoslavia back together?
“Russia illegally annexed Crimea by force,”
Utter bulls#it. Crimea was annexed with a phone call: Take down one flag and put up the other.
“as they created the Donbas independent areas by force of arms.”
Not the way Russians or the people of the Donbas see it. Are you happy about risking WW3, with nukes, to continue to force the (formerly pro-Hitler pro-Nazi) West Ukraine domination of Russian-speaking East Ukraine?
A united Ukraine is worth so much to you that it’s worth triggering WW3?
A nation that was created from whole cloth by V.I. Lenin in 1918 as the Ukraine SSR, inside the USSR?
A united Ukraine that has only existed as an independent country since 1991, and whose borders have shifted wildly down the decades and centuries?
That’s worth WW3 with nukes, to you?
Thank you for posting some well researched info. Don’t know that I agree with it all, but some intelligent discourse is always appreciated.
For the record, JFK pitched a fit about Soviet missiles being set up in Cuba...when we already had ours in Turkey. And at the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, both countries removed those missiles, from Cuba and from Turkey.
If the people of Ukraine wish to secede from a tyranny, they should be allowed to.
It is always wise to carefully consider the POV of your opponent ... he may be as or more dedicated to his belief system than you are to yours.
This is especially true about the POV of a nuclear superpower.
“Utter bulls#it. Crimea was annexed with a phone call: Take down one flag and put up the other.”
Incorrect.
“In February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine...
... On 23 February, pro-Russian demonstrations were held in the Crimean city of Sevastopol. On 27 February, masked Russian troops without insignia[41] took over the Supreme Council (parliament) of Crimea[42][43] and captured strategic sites across Crimea. This led to the installation of the pro-Russian Sergey Aksyonov government in Crimea, the conducting of the Crimean status referendum and the declaration of Crimea’s independence on 16 March 2014.[44][45] Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two Russian federal subjects—the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol on 18 March 2014.[46][47][note 2] Following the annexation, Russia escalated military presence on the peninsula and leveraged nuclear threats to solidify the new status quo on the ground.[49]”
Thank you for a history lesson with maps.
I like what oblomov posted elsewhere:
The Ukraine war is a proxy war between two factions of the left.
The old anti-authoritarian left has been marginalized, and they aren’t one of the warring factions.
It’s between the nationalist neo-Stalinist left and transnational corporatist progressivism.
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