Posted on 12/07/2020 4:51:32 AM PST by EyesOfTX
My opinions on WWII began to form when I was a boy and first heard nonsense like yours about how the Allies were wrong about this and bad about that.
That was about 60 years ago, and tactics of people like yourself, sir, have not changed -- you totally ignore the horrendous crimes committed by Nazis against millions of Germans and against tens of millions from other European countries.
Then you focus in on some event -- Morgenthau seems to be your thing -- saying, in effect: "see, see, both sides were equally bad, moral equivalent, just politics, both sides did it, especially those evil, wicked British, they're the ones, bad Brits are the real cause of everything, Germans were victims, Germans were innocent, Germans got punished way too much and Americans are evil too, for letting Stalin's Soviets rape so many young German girls, shame on Americans!"
Right?
Isn't that what they taught you in Goebbels propaganda school?
Vehmgericht: "Goebbels is not my hero.
You write this in an attempt to discredit me."
If Goebbels were not your hero, then why would you honor him in every post, by repeating lies and mocking the truth?
I don't discredit you, you discredit yourself, FRiend.
Vehmgericht: "You do not dispute the murder of children.
Your argument that the Nazis killed more people sounds like one made by an adolescent. "
"Murder of children", meaning what?
Hundreds of thousands of Germans were killed in Allied bombings of German cities, but as in Britain, German children were moved out of cities to safety in the country.
Tens of millions of Allied civilians were murdered in Nazi German death camps, Einsatzgruppen shootings, starved in ghettos, or otherwise caught in the crossfires of Nazi military aggression.
Here is a listing of WWII casualties by country.
Notice that for Germany the category "Civilian deaths due to wartime famine and disease" is left blank.
There were not significant numbers during the war.
Vehmgericht: "Your argument that the Nazis killed more people sounds like one made by an adolescent. "
Tens of millions murdered by Nazis is a fact having nothing to do with adolescence.
Vehmgericht: "One of the arguments for the Soviets is that they lost 25 million people.
How many of those 25 million were killed by the Soviets themselves.
Nearly 1 millions Soviets fought for the Nazis."
All of those people would have survived had Hitler simply kept his Non-Aggression Pact with Stalin.
Their deaths were caused by Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union.
Vehmgericht: "Your original statement was “Germany itself needed to be utterly destroyed” not Nazi Germany."
From mid 1930s to 1945 Germany was Nazi Germany and visa versa.
There's no need to draw a distinction, Nazis never did, and that Germany needed, needed to be utterly destroyed, period, FRiend.
None of your Goebbels inspired propaganda efforts to confuse, deflect and redirect the main point of WWII can change that fact.
Vehmgericht: "Unconditional surrender prolonged the war and was just what Stalin ordered."
Considering the tens of millions murdered by Nazi forces, anything less that total destruction and unconditional surrender by Germans was absolutely unacceptable.
Germans then desperately needed a figurative "trip to the woodshed" they'd never, ever, forget.
Vehmgericht: "The Morgenthau Plan was designed to destroy the economy of Europe which would push it into the Soviet camp."
Total rubbish.
Morgenthau's plan, of which President Roosevelt initially approved, was intended to reduce Germans to an agricultural nation, forever harmless to their neighbors in Europe & beyond.
Morgenthau's ideas were never fully carried out, except by the Soviets in the East, who began by giving 1/3 of Germany to Poland, and expelling Germans from now Poland -- that eliminated the Prussian problem.
Soviets also took everything of value they could transport.
In Western Germany it's said the Brits (oh, those evil Brits!) and French also took some equipment, though likely only the top-of-the-line, state-of-the-art stuff, leaving routine & outdated German equipment in place.
Americans, of course, took nothing, at least so far as I know.
The Marshall Plan, beginning in 1948, sent aid to 16 European countries, most to Britain, France and the Netherlands, but about 25% to former Axis countries.
Aid was also offered to Eastern Europeans but rejected, naturally, by Stalin.
Vehmgericht: "The Morgentthau Plan and the Yalta Agreement had provisions for slavery in violation of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution."
Or not.
The US Constitution 13th Amendment outlaws slavery except for people convicted of crimes.
Axis POWs could be deemed convicted and treated accordingly.
Also, perhaps you can explain how the US 14th Amendment applies to Nazi war criminals?
Regardless, Nazi Germans were treated with infinitely more mercy & dignity than how they treated their own victims.
At least in the West.
German POWs in Soviet hands got roughly the same treatment as Soviet POWs in Nazi German hands during the war.
That seems fair to me.
BroJoeK: You attribute things to me that are just no so. I assert that the Allies were not perfect but I do not totally ignore the horrendous crimes committed by Nazis. Some Germans were innocent and some Americans were evil. That is not an unreasonable assertion.
I did not attend Goebbel’s propaganda school. Please try to get a grip on reality. Goebbels is not my hero, I do not honor him in every post. “German children were moved out of cities to safety in the country.” Try to do some research. Your ignorance on this subject is astounding.
“Tens of millions murdered by Nazis is a fact having nothing to do with adolescence.” My comment about adolescence referred to your suggestion that since other did something it was alright to do it. Adolescents often do that.
“Germany needed, needed to be utterly destroyed” This led to the destruction of the entire European economy, as planned by Soviet agent, Harry Dexter White.
Thank you for correcting me on the 13th Amendment outlawing slavery. I am not perfect.
“Morgenthau’s ideas were never fully carried out” Read The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Planning. “Americans, of course, took nothing.” Again an area in which you are uninformed. Patents stolen were worth billions.
B*ll Sh*t -- you have yet to even mention a single Nazi crime, FRiend.
As for "Allies were not perfect", that's utter nonsense!.
The Allies were never required to be "perfect", you idiot, only normal citizens -- just as a jury in a court of justice is never required to be "perfect", only normal citizens, peers to pass judgment on their peer.
The Allied "jury" found the Nazi German leadership to be absolutely, totally, irredeemably insane and so destroyed it.
Nothing required the Allies to be "perfect", and the judgment of history confirms their verdict against Nazi Germans.
Vehmgericht: "Some Germans were innocent and some Americans were evil.
That is not an unreasonable assertion."
Of course some Germans were innocent -- more than innocent, many were martyrs & saints!
Dietrich Bonhoeffer comes to mind, and how many hundreds of Catholic clergy suffered & died in Nazi concentration camps along with millions of other innocents?!
But the important fact is that millions of Germans died defending the Nazi regime and how many died opposing it?
A mere relative handful.
So don't tell me "Germans were innocent"!
And "some Americans were evil" you claim?
I say no Americans except traitors were as evil as any Nazi, and proof of that is that we had a functioning justice system which tried, convicted & punished our own criminals for crimes against other Americans and European civilians.
Vehmgericht: "I did not attend Goebbel’s propaganda school.
Please try to get a grip on reality.
Goebbels is not my hero, I do not honor him in every post. “"
Of course Goebbels is your mentor, why else would you focus on "evil Americans" while ignoring massive Nazi war-crimes?
Because that's what they teach in propaganda school...
Vehmgericht quoting BJK: ' 'German children were moved out of cities to safety in the country.'
Try to do some research.
Your ignorance on this subject is astounding."
So far you shown no knowledge of anything real in WWII.
It's a fact that just as British children were moved out of London during the Blitz, so also German children were moved out of their largest cities to escape bombings.
How many were left behind I don't know, but certainly those who could leave did.
Vehmgericht quoting BJK: " 'Tens of millions murdered by Nazis is a fact having nothing to do with adolescence.'
My comment about adolescence referred to your suggestion that since other did something it was alright to do it.
Adolescents often do that."
Even today murderers, especially mass murderers, can receive the death penalty from courts.
Such punishments have nothing to do with adolescence, and everything to do with our definitions of justice.
Vehmgericht quoting BJK: " 'Germany needed, needed to be utterly destroyed.'
This led to the destruction of the entire European economy, as planned by Soviet agent, Harry Dexter White."
Now there, exactly, is your Goebbels propaganda school at work!
How utterly insane do you have to be to blame the ruin of Europe in 1945 on Harry Dexter White and not Adolf Hitler?!
Vehmgericht: "Thank you for correcting me on the 13th Amendment outlawing slavery.
I am not perfect."
Nobody expects you, or anyone here, to be "perfect".
But it is a little rich when you then accuse me of ignorance.
Vehmgericht quoting BJK: " 'Americans, of course, took nothing.'
Again an area in which you are uninformed.
Patents stolen were worth billions."
Oh meine liebe Gott!
Nazis who looted Europe of everything valuable they could, now turn around and complain about alleged theft of their patents?!
Because Werner von Braun brought with him some drawings on how to build V-2 rockets, you think Germans should be paid for the US moon landing?!
Would not the $billions from the US Marshall Plan be compensation enough for any good ideas Americans picked up in Germany after the war?
Friend, I honestly don't "get" where you are coming from -- you think a few Germans were innocent and some Americans were evil, and you seem to have a special "thing" for Henry Morgenthau, never understanding that Morgenthau's plan was the height of mercy compared to President Roosevelt's "Plan A" which was to A-bomb Germany to h*ll.
Yes, those bombs on Japan were originally intended for Hitler, and had they not surrendered unconditionally, Germans would have learned what it is like to die in an A-bomb crematoria to dwarf the ones they used on millions of Jews & others.
“In 1937 another boarder ‘incident’ “
Border. Geez people
I received an email from the university at 7AM about a possible threat to international campuses by terrorists....on 9/11/2001
Germany killed 6 million Jews...for being Jewish. They also killed a large amount of Russians....for being Russian. My grandfather was a judge at Nuremberg. They got what they deserved.
AppyPappy: People who commit crimes should be punished appropriately. Nuremberg was a kangaroo court. Judges sitting next to Russian criminals were complicit. Justice Jackson looted two grand pianos. Hypocrite.
BroJoeK: You are getting boring. Let me stoop to your level for a second. Ilya Ehrenburg is your mentor and you are a poo poo head. Does that sound convincing? I’m sure any intelligent reader would be swayed by this articulate argument.
Adios Quinnosabe
Nations which commit war-crimes against humanity should also be punished appropriately, which is what Germans received, at the cost of tens of millions of Allied civilian lives.
Vehmgericht: "Nuremberg was a kangaroo court."
Rubbish -- the Nuremberg trials were infinitely more fair than any Nazi courts of justice.
They were an exercise in mercy over people who truly deserved much sterner judgments.
Vehmgericht: "Judges sitting next to Russian criminals were complicit.
Justice Jackson looted two grand pianos. Hypocrite."
Russians did not control the Nuremberg proceedings and their influence did not measurably change the outcomes.
I can find nothing to support your claim that Jackson "looted" grand pianos, though such a complaint coming from Nazis who looted everything they could is a bit rich.
I did, however find these words from Albert Speer on Jackson's opening statement at Nuremberg:
Vehmgericht: "Let me stoop to your level for a second.
Ilya Ehrenburg is your mentor and you are a poo poo head."
Unlike your own propaganda instructor, Goebbels, I never heard of "Ilya Ehrenburg".
Regardless, propaganda is the same, from whatever source -- first, select out only the "facts" which fit your own narrative, ignore or condemn everything which doesn't, and if no real facts fit, then invent whatever you need to make it work.
It's all the same techniques, whether it came from Goebbels' propaganda machine or today's alleged "mainstream" media.
” Justice Jackson looted two grand pianos. “
Now do 6 million Jews.
Right, as in 1941, some people thought something might happen, but nobody knew exactly what, when or where.
So Washington warned all the Pacific commanders, from the Panama Canal to the Philippines.
It was the best they could do, but it wasn't nearly enough.
By Christmas Day, 1941, Americans had lost Guam and Wake Islands, the Brits had lost Hong Kong, Japanese had invaded Malaya, Thailand & the Philippines and MacArthur was withdrawing to Bataan.
And Nimitz arrived to take charge at Pearl.
Merry Christmas, 1941!
No, not "Satanic" -- God's policy would require equal justice, meaning one dead German for every non-German Germans murdered.
That's roughly 40 million dead Germans, which would potentially have been achieved had Stalin dropped out of the war and fighting dragged on through all of 1945 and beyond.
Then President Roosevelt's "Plan A" to A-bomb Germany to h*ll would have been enacted and Germans would have received the justice they so truly deserved.
However, Western Allies believed not just in Old Testament justice, but also New Testament mercy which they exercised on the undeserving Germans.
That mercy reduced the death rate among German civilians by around 90%, even in the Soviet zone, but especially in Western Germany.
So you can thank our Lord Jesus Christ and His Christian followers that there is a German nation still today, morally undeserving of existence as they are.
Merry Christmas!
Frohe Weihnachten!
לעבעדיק ניטל
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