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To: x
If members of some group are entitled to declare that they are oppressed and in justifiable revolution against their oppressors just because they feel like it, others are free to argue that from their point of view, members of the first group aren't oppressed and aren't entitled to rebel and may even be oppressors themselves -- and then where are we?

You mean the position taken by King George III? When we succeeded in winning our independence, we changed the Paradigm.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

"Consent of the Governed" pretty much means "Whatever they damned well please." Governing against the consent of the people is tyranny. It doesn't matter if the people want something foolish, it is their choice to make. "Big Brother" may have their best interests at heart, but if we accept the premise that others should be ruled against their will, then how can we bitch about slavery?

You should read this book. Early on it says that slavery is necessary because otherwise these people will sit on their @$$e$ and do nothing all day long. It presumes to dictate what is best for people who would prefer to sit on their asses rather than accomplish anything. I.E. Forced Work.

551 posted on 12/06/2016 3:52:11 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
"Consent of the Governed" pretty much means "Whatever they damned well please."

Read further: "To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world."

Jefferson and the Continental Congress recognized that they had to make a case, to prove that they were indeed oppressed and that there was no available avenue of redress for their grievances.

They weren't saying "FU We do what we like" to Britain or to the rest of the world.

You can read even further:

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

The Founders recognized that it was necessary to work within established legal processes, but in their day the necessary processes either didn't exist or had broken down. Fighting had already begun. It was different in 1861. Constitutional and democratic processes for the redress of grievances existed but were ignored by the secessionists.

You should read this book.

Thomas Prentice Kettell's book was refuted by Stephen Colwell's The Five Cotton States and New York, a pamphlet of 1861. You can find the text on line or look up my many posts here about the two books.

Early on it says that slavery is necessary because otherwise these people will sit on their @$$e$ and do nothing all day long. It presumes to dictate what is best for people who would prefer to sit on their asses rather than accomplish anything. I.E. Forced Work.

Like people didn't work hard after slavery was abolished? You are off your meds again and revealing things that hurt your case and your reputation.

556 posted on 12/06/2016 4:19:33 PM PST by x
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To: DiogenesLamp; x
DiogenesLamp: " 'Consent of the Governed' pretty much means 'Whatever they damned well please.'
Governing against the consent of the people is tyranny.
It doesn't matter if the people want something foolish, it is their choice to make.
'Big Brother' may have their best interests at heart, but if we accept the premise that others should be ruled against their will, then how can we bitch about slavery?"

First of all, regardless of how often you repeat that, or how loudly, it is still not what our Founders intended by their words.
Founders believed that disunion by mutual consent or necessity were legitimate, secession "at pleasure" was nothing but treason.

Second, our Founders considered slavery a form of imprisonment, which is why the actual 13th Amendment says nobody can be enslaved except by due process of law.
Today the US houses hundreds of thousands of convicted criminals -- "enslaved" in jails -- many of whom would doubtless wish to declare their secessions, "at pleasure".
But due process of law made them "slaves", regardless of their own wishes.

574 posted on 12/07/2016 3:04:30 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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