Coding bootcamps: Can you believe their claims?

The Christian Science Monitor ^ | June 25, 2016 | Max Lewontin

[2ndDivisionVet]

The bootcamps promise 12-week immersive training programs, but critics say high job placement numbers may not be credible. Will federal loans help or undermine credibility and costs?

To many students and career-changers hoping to gain programming skills and break into the lucrative tech world, coding bootcamps can seem like a promising option.

Since 2012, such bootcamps have offered hands-on, intensive technical training in as little as 12 weeks, boasting job placements as high as 98 or 99 percent once students complete the program.

But while advocates pitch them as an alternative to a traditional degree program, critics point to their high tuition — often as much as $14,000 — noting that they aren’t overseen by traditional third-party accreditors, unlike many other institutions, including for-profit colleges....

[Lazamataz]

I’m a developer with 25+ years experience, and I can tell you, computer development is much like being a Heating/Ventilation/Air Conditioning specialist.

I have a friend name Nigel. He’s got two decades in HVAC. He can come over to your house, LISTEN TO YOUR SYSTEM, and figure out the problem in 2 minutes. 5 minutes later, you are up and running.

Same with me. I can LOOK AT RESULTANT DATA, figure out the problem in 2 minutes. 5 minutes later, you are up and running.

I can do in 1 hour what it takes a kid outta school a week to do.

That’s the value of experience.

[proxy_user]

In the 80s, I got one guy who was great from a PhD program in Slavic Linguistics. Understanding the structure, logic, and evolution of human languages is a closely-related skill. When I first sat down at the keypunch machine in 1979, I knew nearly nothing about programming but could read Greek and Latin fairly easily.

[Ellendra]

3) Comp Sci programs in US universities, with the 50% rate of employment in the field for recent graduates, have a LOT to answer for.

This one.

My brother is in charge of hiring programmers where he works. He says they don't have any specific degree requirements, but requires that they prove themselves by writing a short program right there in the office. He lays out the specifics for what the program needs to do. It's been 13 years since I took a 1-semester programming class, and I could still write one that met that goal. It's that simple a test.

It took him 3 years and 200 candidates to find someone who could pass that test!

The pay being offered was slightly above the average for that job. People with multiple degrees could not write a program when asked to. What exactly are these universities filling their time with? And why are they passing people who haven't learned squat?!?

[Maceman]

music IS pure math looked at one way ... any hook in any song can be reduced to the math that torques your brain in the right way

I've heard that music is math, but that's not my experience.

I'm a magna cum laude graduate of Berklee College of Music.I LOVE music theory -- a real theory nerd. But I've always sucked at math. I'm dead in the water without a calculator even to do basic arithmatic.

As for programming, I've learned just enough HTML to post links and images on FR. But that's the extent of my "skill," which isn't saying much.

[Chode]

i never knew how much i DIDN'T know about coding until i got my first job...

[CurlyDave]

...is 14K too much to pay to get them permanently out of your house?

IMHO it certainly is. My reasoning is that if Dad pays for it, all it is only another passing fancy. There is no motivation.

If the student pays the $14k on his own, there is motivation. And, there is a job at the end of the course. Because there was motivation.

[scrabblehack]

I’m surprised he didn’t get sued.

When I started my career, all I got were questions like “What was your most satisfying experience?”
“What was your biggest disappointment?”
“What do you do for fun??”

...even for tech jobs. I offered to take a skills test instead, but the employers typically said they couldn’t give me one.

[tinyowl]

I've heard that music is math, but that's not my experience.

I should clarify -> under the hood it's math. That is, you don't need to know math, just like in programming - you really don't need to know math. But as we know octaves are just double the frequency, and 5ths and 4ths and on and on are all simple proportions. ... and then music theory, while still ultimately math, does not require calculation.

If you were forced to learn to program, I almost guarantee you'd be good at it.

Maybe it's this: It's not the number crunching part of mathematics that contributes to trained mathematicians being good software guys ... it's the abstract pattern stuff. Probably the great insights in mathematics ... while ultimately derivable by 'crunching' ... were gained by toying with patterns - i.e. insight rather than rows of numbers.

Or, or course, I could have my head totally up my butt. That said, there are a ton of musicians in software, and they tend to be the ones who like to mess with and overlay patterns - not just theory, but rhythm too.

What did you wind up doing wi/your music? I still love it ... but never ever ever play for discipline - just hack at the electric piano - whatever I feel like - as part of most days.

[tinyowl]

Ok, yeah I agree, and, mine was a loan, and I paid it back very quickly, and I also had to pay for music school when I told my parents I was leaving 'normal' college ... I was kind of kidding about the 'get the kid out of the house for only 14K thing'. The point is, it's a hell of a lot smarter than paying 80K and 4 years for a single-major sociology degree.

The main point is ... these programs are a valid foot-in-the-door ... and after that, it's up to you.

[FreeperCell]

“In 10 years colleges will have moved significantly to vocational-technical stuff”.

The quote of the century.

[Nifster]

true that

[Nifster]

precisely

[Maceman]

What did you wind up doing wi/your music? I still love it ... but never ever ever play for discipline - just hack at the electric piano - whatever I feel like - as part of most days.

I've done my share of gigs, and some paid arranging and studio production gigs. Years ago I was full-time in the GB function band business, both as a performer and agent, playing up to four gigs in a given week-end during the bust seasons and booking up to 15 bands (all playing under the same name) on a busy night from a stable of some 100 musicians. It was cool to do in my 30s, but I got burned out on it and eventually left that to go into the business world.

Nowadays I play in a jazz/funk quintet with three doctors and a great young drummer, but we don't do that many gigs -- it's really just for the chance to play and practice. And I practice my guitar on my couch a lot.

I'm also putting together an online jazz music course that I hope to finally launch before the end of this year. I don't want to publicly describe it at this point, and I am aware that there are plenty of online jazz theory courses out there (and a lot of free ones). But I have a particular niche in mind that I have reason to believe will generate enough revenue that I can quit my current non-music professional career.

We'll see.

[freeandfreezing]

If you would like to work in the Windows environment one good approach is to get a free copy of Visual Studio Express and start working through the many example programs available. Pick a language you are interested in, C# is fine if you don't have any other preference.

You can buy books aimed at beginners, or just read material posted on-line. Use Google to look up every error you run into, and learn from other developers' answers on codeproject or stackoverflow.

[kdot]

Bingo! When asked which programming languages I know, my reply was “all of them”. Retired now, maybe things have changed, but you either can or you can’t. Always loved it when a manager wanted to send a person to a class to teach them to “program”. Insulted at first, but then sat back and watched. ....

[kdot]

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid
Great book the examines the commonalities between math, art and music,

[tinyowl]

Got it! Good luck w/Jazz Course. Though I never used in my career and paid the student loans for a long long time ... very very glad I have it in my life.

[Maceman]

. very very glad I have it in my life.

I know just how you feel.

[thoughtomator]

I had a friend’s son apprentice for me a few years back, he was a Comp Sci student just completed 3rd year. He spent a day a week over the summer break with me, I maybe gave him 8-10 hours of actual instruction, plus a dab of real-world experience in the form of an old client website that needed some sprucing up.

By the time we were done, he told me he learned more in a dozen Fridays of looking over my shoulder than he did in those three years and the ~$60k he’d paid for it.

[publius911]

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