Posted on 08/31/2015 4:10:15 AM PDT by don-o
I’ve reported at length before about various reasons to question the official government narrative surrounding the chaotic and violent incident that resulted in nine people shot to death and 18 wounded and 177 arrested outside the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas, on May 17.
It all happened outside a planned meeting of a mostly political biker club coalition, the Confederation of Clubs and Independents. See here for the most recent, and here the most thorough, of that reporting.
The gag order on people involved in defending the arrested, keeping information from flowing to the public on this controversy, was successfully challenged, then alas reinstated earlier this month.
A set of autopsy reports have been issued about the dead. They are available in full at the Waco Tribune.
The Aging Rebel website, which has featured a lot of interesting reporting and speculation casting doubt on the police story, sums up the somewhat vague basics in this post.
While they do not authoritatively state any judgment on to exactly what type of bullets from what type of gun did the killings—important to discover how many of the deaths and woundings were caused by police themselves as opposed to out of control feuding bikers—the Aging Rebel web site sums up what they don’t tell us:
They do not….disprove the notion that all, or at least most of the dead men were killed by police using M-16s and FN P90 machine guns.
Thirteen of sixteen entrance wounds were .25 inches in diameter or smaller.
FN P90s fire a round with a diameter of .224409 inches. M-16s fire slightly smaller rounds with diameters of 0.218898 inches. All but one of the victims had wounds fired from a downward trajectory. Six of the nine dead had head or neck wounds. None of the wounds contained gunshot residue which indicates that the shots were fired from at least three feet away and probably five feet or farther away. The absence of residue casts doubt on claims by prosecutors of “Bandidos executing Cossacks, and Cossacks executing Bandidos.” Two of the dead had large wounds consistent with a 12 gauge shotgun slug. Ten of 16 wounds were in the back, indicating that the victims were running away when they died. Seven of the wounds were fired from right to left. Six were fired from left to right.
Nine millimeter bullets have a diameter of 0.35433 inches; forty caliber handguns fire a bullet that is four tenths of an inch in diameter and 357 magnums fire rounds that are about .357 inches in diameter…
Most of the recovered bullets were either highly deformed or fragmented which indicates they were fired by high velocity …..
Most police ammunition in the United States is designed to penetrate a human body to a depth of 12 inches and for that reason that ammunition is usually copper jacketed. Most of the bullets that killed at the Twin Peaks were copper jacketed….
None of the autopsies include ballistics information. Notations by eight pathologists involved in the autopsies describe bullets and bullet fragments in very general and inconsistent terms….
In other Waco news, the “examining trial” hearings have been happening for various of the arrested. Those proceedings are meant to ascertain whether there was sufficient cause for an arrest in the first place such that the arrested’s cases should go to a grand jury for actual indictment. The results have not been encouraging about the judicial system's attitudes toward this whole mess.
A 65-year-old Bandido (one of the two biker gangs most blamed by police for the chaos) chaplain, Lawrence Yager, was found justifiably arrested, mostly because he had (legally owned and carried) guns in his possession and in his truck, although, as the Waco Tribune reported:
Yager’s attorney, Landon Northcutt, of Stephenville, argued after the testimonies of Department of Public Safety Lt. Steven Schwartz and Waco police Detective Sam Key that neither officer could offer evidence that Yager conspired to commit murder, assault or any crime that day.
Yager was not wearing his cuts or colors that day and serves as chaplain for the Bandidos, a VFW post and the Texas Association of Vietnam Vets, Northcutt said.
“He was wearing a Christian T-shirt. He was there to minister to people who need him. That is what he does. He is retired. That is all he does,” Northcutt told the judge.
The Waco Tribune’s reporting from the examining trial (where standards for keeping the defendant in the system are far lower than probable cause) of married couple William and Morgan English is a good window into the standards that went into many, likely most, of the arrests that day:
Department of Public Safety Lt. Steven Schwartz, a 17-year department veteran, testified at the morning hearing that William and Morgan English wore patches that identified them as members of a group called Distorted….
He said he thinks the Englishes were aware of the rift between the Cossacks and Bandidos and they were there that day as a show of support for the Bandidos.
But under cross-examination from [the Englishes' lawyer Paul] Looney, Schwartz said neither he nor other DPS investigators were aware that the seven-member Distorted group existed before May 17…
Schwartz said they wore patches that said they support the Bandidos, so that tells him they are at least “somewhat involved in criminal activity.”
He said he saw nothing that day and has developed no subsequent evidence to show the Englishes are involved in criminal activity…..
Schwartz agreed with Looney that the Englishes were cooperative and agreed to talk to investigators after the shooting.
“He said they told police that one of their friends brought a gun with him, but they left it locked up in the car.
“Other than that, all we have is that they were merely present at a murder. Correct?” Looney asked.
“Correct,” Schwartz said.
Only two of the 177 bikers who were arrested on engaging in organized criminal activity charges remain jailed in McLennan County.
Texas Lawyer magazine sums up the grand jury process at work in this case, which won’t see any of the arrested having any chance to clear their names until October, five months after the arrest.
Former Reason intern Jeff Winkler, writing in Texas Monthly, reports on various biker theories as to what was really up at Twin Peaks that day, reported from a planned rally in support of the arrested bikers that was shut down by a bomb scare last week.
Winkler's story ends with a touching scene of various bikers visiting the scene of the crime, treating it like an eerie combination of war memorial and live crime investigation, speculating on what sort of bullets from whom could have taken down biker comrades. (Many are quite sure a sniper was on the roof of a nearby restaurant shooting into the crowd.)
And two non-biker patrons on the scene are suing the restaurant for damages, claiming they were emotionally traumatized and received cuts and bruises at the scene, and that Twin Peaks was negligent for allowing the biker meeting to occur there in the first place after receiving warnings from police not to do so.
I talked briefly on the phone today with lawyer Clint Broden, who represents three of the people arrested that day. Besides confirming the history of the gag order being overturned then reimposed, when asked for any opinions about the relevance of, say, the inconclusive autopsy report, this lawyer representing clients in a matter of intense public interest involving possible criminal malfeasance by police could only beg off.
He’s under a gag order.
“...Most of the bullets were described as “MEDIUM” or larger caliber. that would be 9 mm, .357, .40 and similar. That would indicate that the bullets were fired by the bikers.”
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If, when this has all ended (likely after the 2016 election and the end of your Obama regime’s control of agencies such as BATF and DOJ) and the truth has come out, will you agree to voluntarily remove yourself as a FReeper should it turn out that LEOs (e.g., BATF, supporting local SWAT, etc.) were the deliverers of most deaths?
“If, when this has all ended (likely after the 2016 election and the end of your Obama regime’s control of agencies such as BATF and DOJ) and the truth has come out, will you agree to voluntarily remove yourself as a FReeper should it turn out that LEOs (e.g., BATF, supporting local SWAT, etc.) were the deliverers of most deaths?”
I will issue a public apology and remove myself if it turns out that this was a mass execution set up by the cops and not gunfight started by the bikers.
Are you going to voluntarily remove yourself as a FReeper should it turn out that it was a shootout started by the bikers?
“Never mind. I had hopes for you, but dashed again. “
Dude. I can only comment on something I know about. If you would provide the information I requested then I can discuss.
“...Are you going to voluntarily remove yourself as a FReeper should it turn out that it was a shootout started by the bikers?”
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If it turns out to be a firefight between bikers and BATF/Supporting Agencies then yes I will. I think what likely happened was a shooting of one biker by another biker (possibly induced by one or more undercover operative) followed by a turkey shoot by BATF/DOJ/supporting local LEOs. I suspect we’ll find out that the great majority of the dead/wounded were non-shooters shot down (and/or VERY possibly shot while they were already down) by BATF agents and their support forces.
I don’t think BATF actually planned for it to turn out the way it did with so many dead and wounded but they wanted to provoke something considerably smaller. The Obama regime’s BATF is clearly not very good at setting things such as this in motion (e.g., Fast & Furious and Waco wouldn’t earn gold stars). They are led by political hacks who are not very good at their assigned missions.
Of course the likelihood of us finding out the true facts is minimal at this time and is likely to stay minimal until 2017 when Cruz (or Trump?) assumes the Presidency.
“If it turns out to be a firefight between bikers and BATF/Supporting Agencies then yes I will. I think what likely happened was a shooting of one biker by another biker (possibly induced by one or more undercover operative) followed by a turkey shoot by BATF/DOJ/supporting local LEOs.”
If you believe that the shooting started between bikers I am not sure why you would say you would leave if that turns out to be the case.
If you believe that the shooting started between bikers I am not sure why you would say you would leave if that turns out to be the case.
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Troll, you really need to work on your comprehension skills. What part of the following sentence do you not understand?
“If it turns out to be a firefight between bikers and BATF/Supporting Agencies then yes I will.”
That statement means what it says and nothing more...certainly not what you try to turn it into. My suspicion is that you have never been in one, but a firefight is two-way and not one-way. At Twin Peaks, the BATF, DOJ and Waco Swat folks were safer than they were when they were infants in their mothers’ arms. THEY were shooting at and slaughtering the bikers IMHO and the bikers were not shooting at law enforcement.
“That statement means what it says and nothing more...certainly not what you try to turn it into.”
I am not trying to turn it into anything. You stated “ I think what likely happened was a shooting of one biker by another biker.”
That would imply that the police had a reasonable duty to engage the bikers. We know from all accounts that multiple guns were drawn by the bikers.
From there:
1. The bikers shoot at the cops, or
2. The bikers do not shoot at the cops.
If you are referring to option 1 as your offer, I don’t see any reason for you to leave given that you believe that the bikers started the shooting.
I am not trying to force anything.
“THEY were shooting at and slaughtering the bikers IMHO and the bikers were not shooting at law enforcement.”
Bikers and relatives have stated that the police acted responsibly at the scene and have stated that police probably saved lives at Waco.
Not all bullets were recovered from the dead but seven of the bullets recovered were ‘medium’ caliber, not the .223’s the cops were using.
Witnesses have stated that bikers shot multiple people.
Police have stated that they have video of the shootings.
There is not ONE whit of indication that this was a police massacre except for the drone of the conspirators.
“Why should I do your research for you?”
A rhetorical question is a question that you ask without expecting an answer. The question might be one that does not have an answer. It might also be one that has an obvious answer but you have asked the question to make a point, to persuade or for literary effect.
“If it turns out to be a firefight between bikers and BATF/Supporting Agencies then yes I will.”
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Troll, the above is what I said...nothing more and nothing less. Twist all you want, you can’t change that reality.
“My suspicion is that you have never been in one, but a firefight is two-way and not one-way.”
“THEY were shooting at and slaughtering the bikers IMHO and the bikers were not shooting at law enforcement.”
I am having a problem reconciling those two statements. In the first you say it is ‘two-way’, that bikers shooting at cops and cops shooting at bikers.
In the second you say the bikers were not shooting at cops.
I think I understand your offer now.
If the bikers shot at the cops you will leave. Not that I desire you to leave, you made the offer and I am not trying to force it on you or tie you down. I won’t even mention it if it come to play.
But if it turns out that it went down like the witnesses said (mass executions by the bikers) but is not shown that the bikers shot at the cops, then the cops were totally justified in coming in and stopping the fight.
Seems that is the bigger issue and you have avoided that entirely ... whether or not the cops acted responsibly.
“Could be you’re just lazy, too. “
Over three months on these Waco threads and that is a first!
Obviously you had no proper response to being suckered by my rhetorical questions.
An odd question from someone who is on the verge of being INvoluntarily removed.
“It must be very difficult to be so isolated from the community that you are clearly so interested in being a participant in. The isolation isn’t necessary. The posting style you employ is not increasing the knowledge or insight, much less opinion, of others. I don’t think there’s any doubt that your intelligence shows, and your discipline (you are an engineer after all). I would like to see perhaps more genuine engagement rather than mere baiting.”
After all the stupid graphics and conspiracy theories and personal insults you have engaged in you want ‘genuine engagement’ from me?
” I’ve been direct and honest in my answers to you, where you have asked them.”
Your response was “Do your own research.”
“So that’s what drives part of my adherence to a culture many find intimidating or set apart from the norm.”
Which biker gang are you affiliated with?
“It must be very difficult to be so isolated from the community that you are clearly so interested in being a participant in. The isolation isn’t necessary.”
You can sort of picture me as the ‘independent’ on the road ‘controlled’ by the gangs. I enjoy that independence. I don’t consider it isolation.
“The posting style you employ is not increasing the knowledge or insight, much less opinion, of others.:
Bringing facts to the table and exposing false information is bringing balance to these threads. I don’t expect to ever gain a favorable opinion from a bunch of dudes that consider smear tactics and posting personal information their primary form of engagement.
“The posting style you employ is not increasing the knowledge or insight, much less opinion, of others. “
And yours?
I don’t know if this was your first but it was early on. Please explain how that is ‘increasing the knowledge or insight’ of others?
“Ten trained men with scoped rifles, presighted from prepared positions, applying aimed deliberate fire into a crowd - that’s all you need.
They sure didn’t need more.
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