Posted on 08/15/2015 4:45:38 AM PDT by don-o
The autopsy reports for the nine men killed in the Twin Peaks Massacre in Waco on May 17 are a thicket of words that don’t seem to answer many questions. The reports may be as important for what they don’t disprove as for what they do or don’t prove. They do not for example, disprove the notion that all, or at least most of the dead men were killed by police using M-16s and FN P90 machine guns.
Thirteen of sixteen entrance wounds were .25 inches in diameter or smaller.
FN P90s fire a round with a diameter of .224409 inches. M-16s fire slightly smaller rounds with diameters of 0.218898 inches. All but one of the victims had wounds fired from a downward trajectory. Six of the nine dead had head or neck wounds. None of the wounds contained gunshot residue which indicates that the shots were fired from at least three feet away and probably five feet or farther away. The absence of residue casts doubt on claims by prosecutors of “Bandidos executing Cossacks, and Cossacks executing Bandidos.” Two of the dead had large wounds consistent with a 12 gauge shotgun slug. Ten of 16 wounds were in the back, indicating that the victims were running away when they died. Seven of the wounds were fired from right to left. Six were fired from left to right.
Nine millimeter bullets have a diameter of 0.35433 inches; forty caliber handguns fire a bullet that is four tenths of an inch in diameter and 357 magnums fire rounds that are about .357 inches in diameter.
Highly Deformed
Most of the recovered bullets were either highly deformed or fragmented which indicates they were fired by high velocity weapons and suggests those bullets were shaped like a swallow’s tail. Bullets fired from M-16s have a muzzle velocity of 3,110 feet per second. Bullets fired from FN P90s leave that weapon’s comparatively short barrel at 2,350 feet per second. Bullets generally leave the barrels of nine millimeter handguns at between 950 and 1,300 feet per second; 40 mm handguns generally have a muzzle velocity of between 1,000 and 1,200 feet per second; bullets leave a .357 magnum at about 1,500 feet per second or less; 38 Specials generally have a muzzle velocity of 1,000 feet per second or less.
Most police ammunition in the United States is designed to penetrate a human body to a depth of 12 inches and for that reason that ammunition is usually copper jacketed. Most of the bullets that killed at the Twin Peaks were copper jacketed. Bullets fired from high velocity M-16s, have a tendency to tumble after impact. M-16 rounds tumble because the tail of the projectile is heavier than the nose. The kinetic energy contained in the round has to go somewhere so the bullet tumbles, deforms and usually stops before reaching a depth of 12 inches. Most of the wounds described in the autopsies are consistent with wounds inflicted by M-16s. Both M-16s and FN P90s fire swallow tail shaped bullets.
None of the autopsies include ballistics information. Notations by eight pathologists involved in the autopsies describe bullets and bullet fragments in very general and inconsistent terms. One hundred fifty-one firearms were seized at the crime scene. Bikers usually carry small caliber pistols that range from small revolvers and derringers up to .380 automatics. Ballistic tests on the weapons seized at the Twin Peaks are being conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. An informed source with knowledge of ATF procedures speculated that the tests would be completed in November.
yeah, Boyette's kid must have been mistaken...........
House Atreides said:
Do YOU have links to the “VIDEOS from Twin Peaks and Don Carlos” to which you make reference? Of course you don’t because the authorities who conducted this BATF provocation operation gone bad are not releasing them to the public...they’re just releasing THEIR spin on the videos.
And the LAST TWO WORDS of the extract I made in this post (”officers said”) are reflective of all the “information” you are allowing yourself to rely upon. I’d be careful to take the selective release of “information” with a full deer lick of salt before arriving at any settled conclusion.
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You’re not paying attention here! This is not “spin.” This is hard evidence entered in a court case. It’s public record. Anyone can see it. You can see EVERYTHING entered up to this point. All you have to do is go down to the McClennan County courthouse and ask the clerk for the case file. Though, you might have to wait in line to see it.
And, these affidavits are not just from police. They are from WITNESSES. And, there were plenty of them!
I don’t think the ballistics reports are gonna be too much more helpful. In fact they will probably smother anything especially relevant in mounds of obfuscation. The one exception I am eager to see is the Delgado head wound. As I said, I wonder if it didn’t glance off the corner on the way in. Like some one had that corner in the crosshairs just waiting for someone but then shot just a half inch to close.
In my reading of the autopsies I don’t see a single hand gun wound. Not one. Not to say the bikers did not shoot. Not to say they did not do so first. The handgun wounds went to the ER. The rifle wounds went to the morgue.
In regard to Jr. Boyett’s statement, I think I would be willing to be encouraged to agree to just about anything if I had just seen my father’s head exploded by two police rifle bullets while he was on the ground . Failure to do so might be misconstrued as eagerness to join Dad.
I like you USNB. We disagree some but you listen. You are legtimately concerned and rational. A good FReeper. For many of us FreeRepublic is hallowed ground. We come here like before God, with hat in hand and heart in our throat. Sharing opinions and truth. Sorting out which is which. Some come here to prevent that. I am happy to say you are not one of those, even if we disagree some, I do see your point. It’s just that I have an expectation that sociopathic bikers are going to behave like sociopathic bikers. I get a little concerned when the behavior of sociopathic bikers starts showing up in folks with badges. We should all be concerned when folks with badges start acting like sociopathic bikers.
So implicating Bandidos and their supporters for murder is the safe way out for Ledbetter?
The one thing we won’t agree on is that the bikers were all hugging it out when the police opened fire.
I never said that. From the beginning I have said that while I ride a Hareley and sometimes wear a leather vest I only ride with folks from church. I doubt I would have been at this meeting if it was a mile from my house. What concerns me is the police coming up with the plan they executed and then attempted to cover up and a media that is so complicit with it all. These are portents of far greater dangers we face that hooligan bikers.
OK Mister “The autopsies are irrelevant”. I guess you’re bound and determined to drink the Kool-aid without a grain of salt let alone the deer lick of salt really needed for this pathetic attempt at a cover-up. Pathetic though it may be, it was apparently strong enough to convince you.
Bought any bridges lately?
One guy, Richard Kirschner, was shot three times, in the left hip, right inner/upper thigh, and left knee. He made it to the hospital. The coroner’s report calls the manner of death homicide and says it was the “result of gunshot wounds,” but doesn’t say exactly what killed him. No mention of blood loss or damage to major blood vessels, unless these are just supposed to be assumed.
Maybe it is peculiar to the Rocky Mountain West, but most everyone I know around here prefers .40, .44MAG, or .45 for pistol caliber, and tend heavily toward hollow points... Everything I am seeing here is .22/.25, maybe up to .38/9mm... and sounds like dumdums or FMJ... So all these biker dudes were going at each other with belly guns loaded with target rounds? Where's the big iron?
You are assuming he made it to the hospital. I wouldn’t. Go back and read my post from months ago about the nature of hypersonic bullet wounds. He probably bled out on the spot. People aren’t as tough as deer.
I would expect the police to leave alone the folks there having lunch with their families, and to focus their arrest and kill efforts on the Black Panthers.
I have a question for you. If only one third of the so-called "criminal gang members" arrested and held on million-dollar bail, not to mention I think less than half of the dead, had prior arrest records (let alone actual criminal convictions), does that mean the cops are REALLY stupid and inept, or does it mean that the "criminal gang members" AKA "bikers" are really intelligent and wily?
It has to be one of the two -- remember these hardened killer "criminal gang bikers" were wearing patches and signs proudly proclaiming their status as bikers, according to the MSM/LEO meme. HOW IS IT that even with patches on their backs broadcasting their criminal intent, that up until May 17, a full TWO THIRDS of these criminals had managed to evade any kind of arrest?
Were the cops so lame that they couldn't catch them in the act over the years they've been in Texas, even when said "criminals" wore neon signs identifying themselves?
Or did the cops arrest and punish a bunch of innocent PATRIOTS exercising their right to free-association?
The report said he had hospital id bracelets, and various medical gizmos still attached.
“Perhaps this author has never seen a swallow’s tail before. The swallow’s tail is split. I for one have never seen a bullet with a split base. A base with a cavity yes. “
Well, maybe it’s some new space-age, LEO, Spec-OPS tech we’ve never heard of. Maybe.
I missed the hospital ID.
Like I posted, the folks shot by handguns went to the ER. The ones shot by rifles went to the morgue. This entire “the entry wound can be smaller than the bullet caliber” is an attempt at disruption and distraction. When fired to a highly distensible body cavity this is true. Not when fired into skin overlying bone or firmer tissue. You are not gonna see a .38 or .45 entry wound on a head where the entry whole is .250 or 3/16ths. Ain’t gonna happen. Trust me, I have seen a bunch.
Pocket guns are just to prevent the only worse case of “no gun”. A handgun that has to be carried around in a wheelbarrow is about just as useless.
After trying to bring folks along here in regard to hypersonic vs subsonic tissue damage it occurs to me that perhaps the best way to illustrate the difference physiologically and behaviorally would be to read Ayoob’s account of the FBI’s “Incident in Miami”. Particularly in regard to to bad guy in the passenger seat. He killed several folks with a rifle AFTER he was shot in the chest while his pulmonary artery was pumping blood into his chest. The folks he shot died instantly. If one just can’t grasp “hypersonic shock wave shearing tissue that is thereby pulverized some of which is entrained into the low pressure zone behind the bullet and following it out the exit wound creating a channel for massive, exsanguinating blood loss”, Ayoob’s account my illustrate and illuminate.
Finny wrote:
I would expect the police to leave alone the folks there having lunch with their families, and to focus their arrest and kill efforts on the Black Panthers.
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Which, is apparently what the police at Waco did with the bikers.
Finny then wrote:
I have a question for you. If only one third of the so-called “criminal gang members” arrested and held on million-dollar bail, not to mention I think less than half of the dead, had prior arrest records (let alone actual criminal convictions), does that mean the cops are REALLY stupid and inept, or does it mean that the “criminal gang members” AKA “bikers” are really intelligent and wily?
*****
And, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? What it means is they had rights that prevented them from being apprehended or dealt with up to this point.
Finny then wrote:
HOW IS IT that even with patches on their backs broadcasting their criminal intent, that up until May 17, a full TWO THIRDS of these criminals had managed to evade any kind of arrest?
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Because they hadn’t been observed committing any crimes. But, as you stated earlier, some of them had committed crimes, and were prosecuted for these crimes.
Finny then wrote:
Or did the cops arrest and punish a bunch of innocent PATRIOTS exercising their right to free-association?
*****
The cops were forced to deal with a bunch of habitual lawbreakers that were in the process of committing several felonies and endangering innocent people. “Patriots” my a$$! The bikers were no different than a bunch of gang-banger drive-by shooters. It was incredibly lucky that innocent bystanders weren’t injured or killed.
Except for this inconvenient fact
"Records searched by The Associated Press show more than 115 of the 170 people arrested in the aftermath of a motorcycle gang shootout outside a Central Texas restaurant have not been convicted of a crime in Texas."
AP: Majority of 170 bikers arrested have no convictions in Texas
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