Posted on 06/29/2015 8:23:31 AM PDT by don-o
All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.
Why Do The Due Process Concerns Of Innocents Outweigh The State Interest Of Convicting Those That Are Responsible For The Shooting In Waco?
The Blackstone Ratio, a concept attributed to a famous jurist of the 1860s named Sir William Blackstone, is commonly accepted as a cornerstone of civil liberties and a free society. Closely related to the idea that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, the Blackstone Ratio means that democratic societies do not sacrifice the liberties of the innocent in order to punish the guilty. Democratic societies accept that prioritizing civil liberties of individuals means some guilty people will escape justice in order to preserve a free society.
In a totalitarian society the opposite is true. Totalitarian governments consider the states interest in punishing criminals more important than the collateral damage created by innocents suffering in the process. Totalitarian governments believe that casting dragnets to capture the guilty is justified because it is motivated by the goal of reducing crime and insuring the safety of its citizens.
Certainly it is true that all governments have a compelling state interest to reduce crime and punish the guilty. This is even true in democratic societies. It is even reasonable to say that this interest is based on the belief that people in society have the right to be safe from criminal activity. But the state, in an attempt to accomplish its interests, will eventually come in conflict with personal liberties. So how does the American democratic system determine which interests are more important?
Oftentimes rights come in conflict and compete for priority. When they do, the American criminal justice system says we must balance these rights based on the intent and purpose of the Constitution and the impact on civil liberties generally. The Bill of Rights irrefutably places critical priority on the sanctity of individual rights over draconian police arrests and incarcerations justified by state interests like reducing crime or general public safety.
There is no better example than Waco to demonstrate how the states interest in punishing the guilty has come in conflict with the civil liberties of innocents and potential eyewitnesses. Regardless of what the currently unreleased facts ultimately reveal about what happened in Waco, it defies reason to assert that more than 170 individuals could possibly have committed a crime or be deserving of $1 million dollar bonds.
As has been widely reported, the Waco PD made it very clear that many of the more than 170 individuals arrested were arrested because of their associations with motorcycle clubs allegedly involved in the Waco shooting. There was absolutely no evidence specified, other than mere organizational association, establishing particularized or specific probable cause for any of the individuals arrested. This is evidenced by the fact that every single arrest was based on an identical and generic fill-in the name affidavit.
It has also been made clear, in complete violation of an individuals 5th Amendment right to remain silent, that prosecutors and judges imposed $1 million dollar bonds on every individual arrested based on the gravity of the crime scene and the non-cooperation of those arrested. Bail is intended to insure that an individual does not flee. It is not intended to be a punitive measure. And the right not to be forced into statements of self-incrimination is elementary, understood by almost everyone, particularly those that work in the judiciary system like prosecutors and judges.
Mere membership in a group, even a group that contains convicted felons, does not establish probable cause. As articulated by a recent ACLU press release related to Waco, While all the facts of this tragic incident are still unclear, we do know that if any of the more than 170 arrests were based solely on membership in a group, the Constitution demands more, including probable cause. Mere membership in a group should never be the basis of an arrest. And dragnet arrests raise the specter of overzealous police work, just like weve seen at our border and in cities around the country.
It cannot credibly be argued that the Waco arrest and punitive bond tactics employed by law enforcement and government authorities is not resulting in the suffering of innocents. While incarcerated, innocent people are separated from their families, loved ones, employers, and the enjoyment of every civil liberty enjoyed by free citizens. Many of the accused are still incarcerated. And even those that have been released had to pay a bond and agree to further restrictions on behavior and associations.
So how should this have been handled? Its not my job to decide how law enforcement does its job beyond demanding, and hoping that others demand, that whatever tactics employed respect baseline constitutional principles and individual liberties in order to protect the innocent and the foundations of a free society.
There is a reason the Blackstone Ratio is a critical component of a democratic criminal justice system. Everyone, not just bikers, should be deeply concerned about tactics that cause innocents to suffer. And this is true even if it means the guilty escape prosecution. Sure, rounding up and arresting every biker, or catholic, or Muslim, or teenager with a trench coat, or eyewitness to a crime will most likely include those responsible for the crime being investigated. But these draconian dragnets also ensnare innocent people that suffer from damage to their families, employment, reputations, finances, and the enjoyment of the basic freedoms intended to be guaranteed to every American.
Without joining and paying the extortion fees, they are informed that they are not welcome on the open road.
OK, so what you are saying here is that some of the people at the Waco were criminals, and others were perhaps reluctant victims of extortion.
That's interesting. I would assume that you would not consider a store owner being extorted for protection money by the Mafia member of a criminal conspiracy, as much as a victim of a gang - yet that's what you've asserted repeatedly about all the clubs at the event.
Also, where do you get your information. I've posted links or full articles, you seem to know all about the Texas CoC - were you a member of a MC, or have you read this. Do you have any links to substantiate your claims, at all?
I've ridden motorcycles, a lot, where ever I wanted in Oregon, Washington and both Southern and Northern California for 30 years. No MC member has ever tried to extort me, or tell me I have to join anything. And I've been in bars with full-patch MC members from time to time.
I know for a fact that at least one local club doesn't belong to the WA CoC, nor pay them any money.
Is it possible that the world of motorcyclists is a little more complicated than the picture you are painting of it?
Thanks!
There is no reasonable and particular evidence against many of them, they were just at the event. This is why they all at cookie cutter arrest warrants, this is why they used a very low level justice of the peace to sign the arrest warrants and search warrants on siezed phones and such.
And $1 Million bail is not typical, and was not reasonable, as proven by the fact that in many cases it's gone from $1 million to something like $20,000.
My information comes firsthand from outlaw bikers who I’ve known personally, so I can’t really provide a link for all of that. For people in those circles, how the COCs operate “common knowledge”, and they describe it exactly as law enforcement described its operations in the indictments.
Here’s a 1%er site that describes the Bandidos engaging in this kind of extortion:
“As I said, most clubs are not outlaw clubs and dont wear a top and bottom rocker. They may have a top rocker but if they have a bottom patch it will not have State, City or County wording on it , many times it will be the members road name. For example any club in Texas (unless its grand fathered by the Bandidos) thats not affiliated with Bandidos, (and other than a police club) are not allowed to fly the “Texas” patch (”Bar” or “Rocker”) on the back. They have even forced some police clubs to remove the Texas rocker. Also, 99% of Bandido support clubs cannot wear Texas on the back. The Bandidos claim that right as an MC (Motorcycle Club) and will aggressively approach you if you are seen wearing it on the back of your colors. Most states have its dominant 1% club where the same rule applies. The Bandidos are the dominant club in Texas as well as several other states.”
http://www.rcvsmc.net/id8.html
Here’s another forum where bikers were describing which outlaw gangs run the COCs in their states:
“Well here in the Lone Star State, it’s Red & Gold Country. Bandido Land...And you pay to ride here, to be legit club, you will be a member of the TXCOC, ran by the Bandidos.
No club is allow to have Texas on there back but them, being a Marine Vet club..We claim no turf! To much hassle. Just know your surroundings. I left Dallas in 2006, headed to NC. I had to park my Cut/Vest due to Pagan Land. Bad blood between the two. Even tho i am not a member, but i wear a TXCOC patch, they put us under there wings of protection. Same way for Cali, Mongols & HA’s, go out there as a Pagan or Bandido...
Again, do your homework before you patch up. At least for a three piece patch holder. Find out who’s turf you riding on!”
http://forum.mastermason.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8770
That’s from 2011, so as you can see, these activities by the Bandidos are nothing new.
“There is no reasonable and particular evidence against many of them, they were just at the event.”
This really isn’t true. There were a great many people “just at the event”, inside the restaurant, waiting for it to start, who weren’t arrested. The people arrested seem to be the groups that were out on the patio involved in the criminal actions there.
“And $1 Million bail is not typical, and was not reasonable, as proven by the fact that in many cases it’s gone from $1 million to something like $20,000.”
It’s quite typical for the type of indictment they face, because they are indicted under organized crime statutes. Bail reduction is not evidence of some unconstitutionally unreasonable bail amount. It’s actually evidence that the system’s protections of their rights are in place and working correctly!
“That’s interesting. I would assume that you would not consider a store owner being extorted for protection money by the Mafia member of a criminal conspiracy, as much as a victim of a gang - yet that’s what you’ve asserted repeatedly about all the clubs at the event. “
What is it that you think I have asserted?
“No MC member has ever tried to extort me, or tell me I have to join anything.”
I am guessing from that statement that you do not belong to a club. I have been discussing those that belong to clubs.
“My information comes firsthand from outlaw bikers who Ive known personally, so I cant really provide a link for all of that. For people in those circles, how the COCs operate common knowledge, and they describe it exactly as law enforcement described its operations in the indictments.”
If all these dudes are just nice family men that enjoy the freedom of biking WTH do they elect the Bandidos to lead the Texas CoCI?
“I know for a fact that at least one local club doesn’t belong to the WA CoC, nor pay them any money. “
The Cossacks didn’t pay the Bandidos either ... eight dead.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Good question...the Washington CoC website isn't that easy to navigate but it looks like there are at least four or five Bandido support clubs that are part of it.
A list of WCoC officers and their club affiliation would tell the story.
The author of the article is a member of the Outsiders MC which is not Bandido affiliated as far as I can tell.
You are right, I have never belonged to any club. The only time I've been around MCs and 1%ers was at various bars we happened to be in at the same time. Never because I knew they were going to be their, I might add.
I have for the most part found them a bit of PITA. One time a member told me I had to get out the chair I was sitting in at a bar because "the President" wanted to sit there. I told him sorry, but I was comfortable and wasn't moving. Then I motioned to the bartender (I went in this place a lot) and said "Tiny, they say I have to move for the President, do I?" ... "No way man". As you would expect "Tiny" was about 6'6" and 300+lbs so nothing else was said, and they actually seemed to accept me after their little test.
They had awesome bikes.
This was a pretty small local club, not one of the Big Six outlaw clubs, but they did have attitude.
That's the worst experience I've had with bikers, but I don't have much exposure to them, as I said.
And growing up in Detroit both the Outlaws and the Highwaymen were not people you wanted to be around, even casually.
So, I'm not a closet MC/RC fellow.
I see the Free Souls around here, and Iron Order (who are not 1%) and that's about it. Maybe they are in some other part of the state. I'm in the SW.
I hear tell from guys I'm pretty close to, guys who don't belong to any clubs but who've been riding bikes all over the country for more than 50 years, guys who have sat down and talked one-on-one with REAL scary bad-ass biker club dudes and even tatted-up a few, carried on conversations with Sonny Barger, and been longtime friends with some seriously hard-core biker felons, that bikers in BAD clubs are asshats when they're in a group, but alone or in twos, pretty mild, and MOST OF THE TIME even in groups they won't bother you if you don't bother them.
As for the 1% patches and supposed secret criminal significance of various insignia -- it's colorful lore that's probably accurate 50 percent of the time -- meaning that half the time, it's probably pure bullsh*t.
It's getting dangerouser and dangerouser. Obviouser and Obviouser. I'm starting to feel like an idiot -- I believed that because the Bandidos are a "Tier two" criminal gang according to police and I've heard biker friends say they've heard of bad ones, I bought into the Hells Angel myth. The Bandidos look very much like a pretty square manly club of Veteran dudes who are trying to change that bad image in a biker brotherhood. Their patch is positively benign. It would be laughable if it wasn't so crazy tragic and like a slow train wreck, a bad novel. America is being duped to a very high level, and there must be a reason.
I feel like saluting every damned biker I see, patched, "cut," or not. I pray local lamen stand strong with the righteous, even if some of those righteous do have a few busts in their pasts.
Tyranny is on the move.
Significant Update on Twin Peaks Shooting:
192 individuals are being arrested and processed this morning in reference to the Twin Peaks Shooting. They will all face Engaging in Organized Crime charges. They are being booked and processed at this time. McLennan County District Attorney is involved in our investigation and has been assisting us throughout the night.
TABC is implementing a Summary Suspension closing Twin Peaks for at least 7 days. This is not a punitive action on TABC's part but done due to the ongoing danger it presents to our community. They are conducting a parallel investigation and further action may be forthcoming.
Re. Texas Rocker:
**Smith said it all changed when the Cossacks decided to put Texas on the back of their vests, intensifying mounting tensions with the Bandidos, who view Texas as their territory.
It was cool to me at first. I grew up in Texas, Smith said. But things changed and that is not what I joined for.**
Seth A. Smith, who was at Waco as a Cossack, gave it up:
**This whole situation destroyed what I expected out of a club, Smith said. We joined because of the family atmosphere, the family component, but this has all been far from it. Im out.
He said he allowed his motorcycle to be released back to the lienholder. He and his wife now share a two-door Fiat.**
“As for the 1% patches and supposed secret criminal significance of various insignia...”
It’s not secret, it’s common knowledge. Trying to deny it just shows everyone you don’t know what the hell you are talking about.
Finny has jumped the shark again in #76:
” The Bandidos look very much like a pretty square manly club of Veteran dudes who are trying to change that bad image in a biker brotherhood.”
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